From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov  1 17:43:51 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 14:43:51 -0700
Subject: [Discuss] Aptitude Test or Family Feud?
In-Reply-To: <05d9dce2b8ba2df4892891f667efaf90.squirrel@mail.mohawksoft.com>
References: <6db3d65a-5c68-4a75-b83f-d8f3c2c9d8b7@me.com>
 <CEF87396-EA79-4460-9893-2AA6C3D0BBD9@bu.edu>
 <20211026145658.34a4a690.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <CAMdng5t=sO89YS=zN0EERJ-iy0Z=tKOpdMHPCOp0Qix-SxyWKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf26d0da-66a9-dfcb-4059-2fbb5cc0f9ef@borg.org>
 <a4a20de252ac7bed253a17bcd05a97bd.squirrel@mail.mohawksoft.com>
 <a3146ab6-170f-ee38-11be-f9c0b2d53f1f@borg.org>
 <05d9dce2b8ba2df4892891f667efaf90.squirrel@mail.mohawksoft.com>
Message-ID: <764186f8-9899-ad80-d9b3-0b81453df6bf@borg.org>

On 10/26/21 3:40 PM, markw at mohawksoft.com wrote:
> They are trying to hire, you should try again. You don't have to be 
> perfect. 

At the moment I have a good job.


-kb, the Kent who finds it annoying that companies are less interested 
in him when he is interested in them.



From epp at sillydog.org  Wed Nov 10 21:47:11 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:47:11 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] OT - HDD light blinks in a pattern with audio before
	bootup
Message-ID: <93ca4d4e-340b-f60e-ebca-e56ada57270c@sillydog.org>

One of my desktops (HP Compaq CQ5110F) briefly failed this evening, 
while trying to determine why the HDD light blinks in a pattern (blip, 
blip (pause) blip) several times, with pops coming from the speakers at 
the exact same time, before the BIOS screen appears when it's powered on 
every time. I determined that it was the PCI-E x16 Radeon video card I 
installed, am using that because nouveau doesn't seem to want to play 
nice with Linux. During the investigative phase before the system 
failed, from the BIOS, I ran both the short and extended SMART tests on 
the HDD and they completed without any errors.

After removing and re-seating everything not fastened down 
(video/network/RAM) and resetting the CMOS, the system came back up but 
(l)ubuntu wouldn't fully boot up, there was some slow HDD activity, but 
it did not get past the splash screen after 15 minutes. I then 
reinstalled (l)ubuntu, which took no more than 10 minutes and it now 
fully boots up again.

I ruled out everything else, but am curious as to whether there might be 
a particular reason why the HDD light blinks like this with the presence 
of the video card.

Thanks in advance.


-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.




From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 09:23:53 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:23:53 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] OT - HDD light blinks in a pattern with audio before
	bootup
In-Reply-To: <93ca4d4e-340b-f60e-ebca-e56ada57270c@sillydog.org>
References: <93ca4d4e-340b-f60e-ebca-e56ada57270c@sillydog.org>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogEyz=mKaHb=gQNsFR0Kc2VHJxvRGM1Ha0fa1=towy+fTA@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure. If you hit esc in the splash screen you will see text. And you
will see where it stopped. There are 4 processes
1. Post. This is the bios.
2. Kernel and drivers. This usually takes a few seconds
3. System Daemons. This should be quick.
4. Everything else not kernel related including the desktop.

Step 4 is probably where you are blocking.

If you don't post. The issue is on the MB. Could be a plugin card or
memory.
If the kernel fails you will get a crash notice


--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 9:49 PM Edward <epp at sillydog.org> wrote:

> One of my desktops (HP Compaq CQ5110F) briefly failed this evening,
> while trying to determine why the HDD light blinks in a pattern (blip,
> blip (pause) blip) several times, with pops coming from the speakers at
> the exact same time, before the BIOS screen appears when it's powered on
> every time. I determined that it was the PCI-E x16 Radeon video card I
> installed, am using that because nouveau doesn't seem to want to play
> nice with Linux. During the investigative phase before the system
> failed, from the BIOS, I ran both the short and extended SMART tests on
> the HDD and they completed without any errors.
>
> After removing and re-seating everything not fastened down
> (video/network/RAM) and resetting the CMOS, the system came back up but
> (l)ubuntu wouldn't fully boot up, there was some slow HDD activity, but
> it did not get past the splash screen after 15 minutes. I then
> reinstalled (l)ubuntu, which took no more than 10 minutes and it now
> fully boots up again.
>
> I ruled out everything else, but am curious as to whether there might be
> a particular reason why the HDD light blinks like this with the presence
> of the video card.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> --
> If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From epp at sillydog.org  Thu Nov 11 10:07:11 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:07:11 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] OT - HDD light blinks in a pattern with audio before
 bootup
In-Reply-To: <CAEvgogEyz=mKaHb=gQNsFR0Kc2VHJxvRGM1Ha0fa1=towy+fTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <93ca4d4e-340b-f60e-ebca-e56ada57270c@sillydog.org>
 <CAEvgogEyz=mKaHb=gQNsFR0Kc2VHJxvRGM1Ha0fa1=towy+fTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e1db4cf0-8bce-fd48-b6d7-894b4e01c836@sillydog.org>

On 11/11/21 09:23, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> Not sure. If you hit esc in the splash screen you will see text. And 
> you will see where it stopped. There are 4 processes
> 1. Post. This is the bios.
> 2. Kernel and drivers. This usually takes a few seconds
> 3. System Daemons. This should be quick.
> 4. Everything else not kernel related including the desktop.
>
> Step 4 is probably where you are blocking.
>
> If you don't post. The issue is on the MB. Could be a plugin card or 
> memory.
> If the kernel fails you will get a crash notice


I didn't think to hit ESC, as I recalled one of the F keys brought up a 
terminal, which didn't occur when I tried them, but it booted up fine 
(with the described HDD light pattern) this morning.

-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.



From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 13:21:52 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:21:52 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Boston Linux VIRTUAL Meeting , Wednesday, November 17,
 2021 - Introduction to Ceph
Message-ID: <c7cab9b1-f8c1-4715-83c3-29463b0eb58b@gmail.com>

When:November 17, 2021 7:00PM EDT (6:30PM for Q&A)
Topic: Introduction to Ceph
Moderator: Neha Ojha

Location: Online: https://meet.jit.si/blu.org

Live stream: https://youtu.be/gDrtXmsRjQM

Summary:

A deep dive into Ceph

Abstract:

What is Ceph? How is it different?

Neha discusses basic Ceph architecture, including details about RADOS, 
RGW, RBD,
and CephFS. She also discusses Ceph's management plane and details about 
the Ceph community and ecosystem.

Bio

Neha is Project Technical Lead for the Ceph RADOS subsystem, Red Hat 
Software



For further information and directions please consult the BLU Web site:
http://www.blu.org

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com <mailto:gaf.linux at gmail.com>>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1? 3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7











_______________________________________________
Announce mailing list
Announce at lists.blu.org
http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/announce

From kkeville at mit.edu  Fri Nov 12 09:11:41 2021
From: kkeville at mit.edu (Kurt L Keville)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 14:11:41 +0000
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
Message-ID: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>

I don't think... do zombies eat livers?

https://beowulfbash.com/?

From epp at sillydog.org  Sat Nov 13 19:33:05 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 19:33:05 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] OT - HDD light blinks in a pattern with audio before
 bootup
In-Reply-To: <e1db4cf0-8bce-fd48-b6d7-894b4e01c836@sillydog.org>
References: <93ca4d4e-340b-f60e-ebca-e56ada57270c@sillydog.org>
 <CAEvgogEyz=mKaHb=gQNsFR0Kc2VHJxvRGM1Ha0fa1=towy+fTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e1db4cf0-8bce-fd48-b6d7-894b4e01c836@sillydog.org>
Message-ID: <5e6258f2-154e-d0ef-4aa4-c885534f974d@sillydog.org>

On 11/11/21 10:07, Edward wrote:
> On 11/11/21 09:23, Jerry Feldman wrote:
>> Not sure. If you hit esc in the splash screen you will see text. And 
>> you will see where it stopped. There are 4 processes
>> 1. Post. This is the bios.
>> 2. Kernel and drivers. This usually takes a few seconds
>> 3. System Daemons. This should be quick.
>> 4. Everything else not kernel related including the desktop.
>>
>> Step 4 is probably where you are blocking.
>>
>> If you don't post. The issue is on the MB. Could be a plugin card or 
>> memory.
>> If the kernel fails you will get a crash notice
>
>
> I didn't think to hit ESC, as I recalled one of the F keys brought up 
> a terminal, which didn't occur when I tried them, but it booted up 
> fine (with the described HDD light pattern) this morning.

To update this, the HDD light pattern still occurs before POST/BIOS, but 
the popping sound from the speakers in-sync with the light pattern, no 
longer occurs.


-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.


From dbarrett at blazemonger.com  Mon Nov 15 10:37:53 2021
From: dbarrett at blazemonger.com (Daniel Barrett)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:37:53 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Name an upcoming O'Reilly book?
References: <mailman.1.1608915603.20520.discuss@lists.blu.org>
 <24759.52298.982549.780608@blazemonger.com>
Message-ID: <24978.32465.894283.629134@blazemonger.com>


On June 2, 2021, Daniel Barrett wrote:
>I'm working on a new Linux book and I'm having trouble coming up with
>a good title. So I'm soliciting your suggestions[...]

Thank you to the 8 BLU members who submitted title suggestions back in
June for my upcoming Linux book, which aims to raise people's
day-to-day skills at the command line. O'Reilly ultimately elected to
use a different title that was not suggested by a BLU member, but I am
crediting BLU in the acknowledgments for helping out.

The final title is "Efficient Linux at the Command Line." The book is
fully drafted and now in technical review. Publication should be
mid-year 2022. If you're interested, an early rough draft of the first
four chapters is free online at:

  https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/efficient-linux-at/9781098113391/

Much has changed since this "raw and unedited" draft, but it should
give an idea of the book's philosophy and style.

Thanks again!

--
Dan Barrett
dbarrett at blazemonger.com


From jdm at moylan.us  Mon Nov 15 14:40:52 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:40:52 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
Message-ID: <YZK3xOBX4FSHFoMQ@alphacent.localdomain>


i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
same issue.

aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
able to type in the password successfully, but after
summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.

what the hell have i done?

any suggestions would be appreciated.

tia,
ole dan

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From jdm at moylan.us  Mon Nov 15 15:33:34 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:33:34 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
Message-ID: <YZLEHuRzpX6s6JWH@alphacent.localdomain>


ian kelling <iank at fsf.org> writes:
> dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> writes:

>> i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
>> to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
>> the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
>> with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
>> it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
>> keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
>> itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
>> same issue.
>>
>> aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
>> somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
>> with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
>> note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
>> able to type in the password successfully, but after
>> summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.
>>
>> what the hell have i done?
>>
>> any suggestions would be appreciated.

> Does it work in a virtual terminal? Eg: ctrl-alt-2 ? Anything notable in
> journalctl -e ?

hard to tell, since ctl-alt-F2 doesn't produce a virtual terminal,
nor does jorunalctl-e produce anything.  i.e. total disconnect.

ole dan

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From epp at sillydog.org  Mon Nov 15 16:50:47 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:50:47 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
In-Reply-To: <YZK3xOBX4FSHFoMQ@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZK3xOBX4FSHFoMQ@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <09a80341-b85f-e2fa-fdaa-56901581c4ec@sillydog.org>

On 11/15/21 14:40, dan moylan wrote:
> i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
> to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
> the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
> with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
> it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
> keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
> itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
> same issue.
>
> aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
> somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
> with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
> note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
> able to type in the password successfully, but after
> summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.
>
> what the hell have i done?
>
> any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> tia,
> ole dan

https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023464113-Wireless-Touch-Keyboard-K400-Plus-Technical-Specifications

According to this, it's 2.4GHz wireless. Since it sounds like it and the 
original are operating erratically, is there another device in close 
range that is also using 2.4Ghz? If so, it could be interfering with the 
communications between the keyboard and its receiver.


-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.


From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 17:08:36 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:08:36 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
In-Reply-To: <YZK3xOBX4FSHFoMQ@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZK3xOBX4FSHFoMQ@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogGgQz9NLKO2_CZbJbbTHnCg07wKVnD98zXNnjHixJR8MA@mail.gmail.com>

While I am not familiar with the nuc or the specific keyboard. Could you
try an old USB keyboard.

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:44 PM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:

>
> i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
> to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
> the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
> with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
> it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
> keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
> itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
> same issue.
>
> aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
> somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
> with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
> note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
> able to type in the password successfully, but after
> summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.
>
> what the hell have i done?
>
> any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> tia,
> ole dan
>
> j. daniel moylan
> 84 harvard ave
> brookline, ma 02446-6202
> 617-777-0207 (cel)
> jdm at moylan.us
> www.moylan.us
> [BLM]
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From jdm at moylan.us  Mon Nov 15 17:36:11 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:36:11 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
Message-ID: <YZLg20KmMF5jh9/u@alphacent.localdomain>


jerry feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com> writes:
> While I am not familiar with the nuc or the specific
> keyboard. Could you try an old USB keyboard.

i've just got the two logitec keyboards, both working off
nano dongles.  but note that the keyboards work with no
problems while typing in the password in the fc33 login
screen, but not in the terminal after login.  the built-in
touchpad on the keyboards works fine after login.

edward <epp at sillydog.org> writes:
> https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023464113-Wireless-Touch-Keyboard-K400-Plus-Technical-Specifications

> According to this, it's 2.4GHz wireless. Since it sounds
> like it and the original are operating erratically, is there
> another device in close range that is also using 2.4Ghz? If
> so, it could be interfering with the communications between
> the keyboard and its receiver.

same comment.  my home wireless net is at 5 GHz.

> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:44 PM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:

>> i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
>> to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
>> the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
>> with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
>> it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
>> keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
>> itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
>> same issue.
>>
>> aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
>> somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
>> with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
>> note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
>> able to type in the password successfully, but after
>> summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.

ole frustrated dan

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From jdm at moylan.us  Mon Nov 15 18:03:55 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:03:55 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
Message-ID: <YZLnW3tzrt8BL4LQ@alphacent.localdomain>


new data point: when the dongle for either keyboard is
plugged into my laptop, touchpad and keyboard function
perfectly.


jerry feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com> writes:
> While I am not familiar with the nuc or the specific
> keyboard. Could you try an old USB keyboard.

i've just got the two logitec keyboards, both working off
nano dongles.  but note that the keyboards work with no
problems while typing in the password in the fc33 login
screen, but not in the terminal after login.  the built-in
touchpad on the keyboards works fine after login.

edward <epp at sillydog.org> writes:
> https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023464113-Wireless-Touch-Keyboard-K400-Plus-Technical-Specifications

> According to this, it's 2.4GHz wireless. Since it sounds
> like it and the original are operating erratically, is there
> another device in close range that is also using 2.4Ghz? If
> so, it could be interfering with the communications between
> the keyboard and its receiver.

same comment.  my home wireless net is at 5 GHz.

> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:44 PM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:

>> i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
>> to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
>> the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
>> with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
>> it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
>> keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
>> itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
>> same issue.
>>
>> aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
>> somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
>> with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
>> note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
>> able to type in the password successfully, but after
>> summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.

ole frustrated dan

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From epp at sillydog.org  Mon Nov 15 17:51:25 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:51:25 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
In-Reply-To: <YZLg20KmMF5jh9/u@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZLg20KmMF5jh9/u@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <d82bd8e3-e710-9f5c-1f87-9647603fe0be@sillydog.org>

On 11/15/21 17:36, dan moylan wrote:
> jerry feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com> writes:
>> While I am not familiar with the nuc or the specific
>> keyboard. Could you try an old USB keyboard.
> i've just got the two logitec keyboards, both working off
> nano dongles.  but note that the keyboards work with no
> problems while typing in the password in the fc33 login
> screen, but not in the terminal after login.  the built-in
> touchpad on the keyboards works fine after login.
>
> edward <epp at sillydog.org> writes:
>> https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023464113-Wireless-Touch-Keyboard-K400-Plus-Technical-Specifications
>> According to this, it's 2.4GHz wireless. Since it sounds
>> like it and the original are operating erratically, is there
>> another device in close range that is also using 2.4Ghz? If
>> so, it could be interfering with the communications between
>> the keyboard and its receiver.
> same comment.  my home wireless net is at 5 GHz.

If you have a cordless telephone that also uses the 2.4GHz frequency, 
/that/ could also interfere with the keyboard and receiver.

See if the keyboard and receiver have a channel selector and try other 
channels.


-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.




From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 18:21:02 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:21:02 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
In-Reply-To: <YZLg20KmMF5jh9/u@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZLg20KmMF5jh9/u@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogGrty2OK_RqH-n6hZPPLSe0rErJWjFthjfZuH6wh0WPNw@mail.gmail.com>

What happens if both keyboards are connected at the same time.

Are the nano dongles logitech or another brand. I assume they are Bluetooth
or is the wireless logitech proprietary. I'm wondering, after you login,
try removing the nano dongle for a few seconds and then plug it back in.
It's possible the login screen does a reset.

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:38 PM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:

>
> jerry feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com> writes:
> > While I am not familiar with the nuc or the specific
> > keyboard. Could you try an old USB keyboard.
>
> i've just got the two logitec keyboards, both working off
> nano dongles.  but note that the keyboards work with no
> problems while typing in the password in the fc33 login
> screen, but not in the terminal after login.  the built-in
> touchpad on the keyboards works fine after login.
>
> edward <epp at sillydog.org> writes:
> >
> https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023464113-Wireless-Touch-Keyboard-K400-Plus-Technical-Specifications
>
> > According to this, it's 2.4GHz wireless. Since it sounds
> > like it and the original are operating erratically, is there
> > another device in close range that is also using 2.4Ghz? If
> > so, it could be interfering with the communications between
> > the keyboard and its receiver.
>
> same comment.  my home wireless net is at 5 GHz.
>
> > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:44 PM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:
>
> >> i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
> >> to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
> >> the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
> >> with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
> >> it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
> >> keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
> >> itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
> >> same issue.
> >>
> >> aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
> >> somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
> >> with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
> >> note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
> >> able to type in the password successfully, but after
> >> summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.
>
> ole frustrated dan
>
> j. daniel moylan
> 84 harvard ave
> brookline, ma 02446-6202
> 617-777-0207 (cel)
> jdm at moylan.us
> www.moylan.us
> [BLM]
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From epp at sillydog.org  Mon Nov 15 19:45:52 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:45:52 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
In-Reply-To: <YZLnW3tzrt8BL4LQ@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZLnW3tzrt8BL4LQ@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <89f5fcbb-f2ee-bcbb-6617-eab84ec8fdae@sillydog.org>

On 11/15/21 18:03, dan moylan wrote:
> new data point: when the dongle for either keyboard is
> plugged into my laptop, touchpad and keyboard function
> perfectly.

I was not able to find a K404R keyboard, but found a K400R. The K400R, 
like the K400+, operates on 2.4GHz and has a range of 33 feet, this 
would be independent of your 5GHz net. The keyboard and dongle 
communicate with each other on 2.4.

If there are no other devices like a cordless phone operating on 2.4 
which could cause interference, could the batteries in the keyboards be 
the cause?


-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.


From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 19:48:56 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:48:56 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
In-Reply-To: <89f5fcbb-f2ee-bcbb-6617-eab84ec8fdae@sillydog.org>
References: <YZLnW3tzrt8BL4LQ@alphacent.localdomain>
 <89f5fcbb-f2ee-bcbb-6617-eab84ec8fdae@sillydog.org>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogE0k+xz_1=+GYB0drpGgpVamZfaY1whpw-89TEqWu9Rzg@mail.gmail.com>

I doubt it knowing Dan.

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 7:47 PM Edward <epp at sillydog.org> wrote:

> On 11/15/21 18:03, dan moylan wrote:
> > new data point: when the dongle for either keyboard is
> > plugged into my laptop, touchpad and keyboard function
> > perfectly.
>
> I was not able to find a K404R keyboard, but found a K400R. The K400R,
> like the K400+, operates on 2.4GHz and has a range of 33 feet, this
> would be independent of your 5GHz net. The keyboard and dongle
> communicate with each other on 2.4.
>
> If there are no other devices like a cordless phone operating on 2.4
> which could cause interference, could the batteries in the keyboards be
> the cause?
>
>
> --
> If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From jdm at moylan.us  Mon Nov 15 19:59:19 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:59:19 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] odd problem
Message-ID: <YZMCZ6iCoiqvkx7l@alphacent.localdomain>


gregory galperin <grg at csail.mit.edu> writes:
> by 'terminal' I assume you mean a terminal window in x11?
> if so, sounds like an xwindows problem...
> can you log in as root?  (which presumably does not run x11?)

yes i can, and as root am able to bring up an x11 terminal
in which the keyboard types in quite nicely with no
problems.

> check in /var/log/Xorg.0.log ...

find / -name Xorg.0.log 2>/dev/null produces nothing, and
i'm not sure i'd know what to look for in it or what to do
if i found it.

what does this tell us?

ole dan

> > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:44 PM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:
>
> >> i've been happily running fc33 on an intel nuc-10 connected
> >> to an aoc monitor.  recently, i was attempting to connect
> >> the nuc to the 55 in lg tv over my mantel and had trouble
> >> with the logitec K404r keyboard.  when i summoned a terminal
> >> it came up, but the keyboard did not communicate.  the
> >> keyboard's built in touchpad worked fine, but the keypad
> >> itself did not connect.  moving back to the aoc monitor,
> >> same issue.
> >>
> >> aha, says i, the touchpad is fine, but the keyboard has
> >> somehow become faulty.  off to the microcenter, coming home
> >> with a logitec K400+ keyboard.  agrrragh!  same issue.
> >> note, however, that when the login screen came up, i was
> >> able to type in the password successfully, but after
> >> summoning a terminal -- total disconnect.

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Tue Nov 16 10:27:01 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:27:01 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Boston Linux VIRTUAL Meeting, Reminder, tomorrow,
 Wednesday, November 17, 2021 - Introduction to Ceph
Message-ID: <e4ee3ac3-f86b-574d-534f-2e93837f1817@gmail.com>

When:November 17, 2021 7:00PM EDT (6:30PM for Q&A)
Topic: Introduction to Ceph
Moderator: Neha Ojha

Location: Online: https://meet.jit.si/blu.org

Live stream: https://youtu.be/gDrtXmsRjQM

Summary:

A deep dive into Ceph

Abstract:

What is Ceph? How is it different?

Neha discusses basic Ceph architecture, including details about RADOS, 
RGW, RBD,
and CephFS. She also discusses Ceph's management plane and details about 
the Ceph community and ecosystem.

Bio

Neha is Project Technical Lead for the Ceph RADOS subsystem, Red Hat 
Software



For further information and directions please consult the BLU Web site:
http://www.blu.org

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com <mailto:gaf.linux at gmail.com>>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1? 3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7












_______________________________________________
Announce mailing list
Announce at lists.blu.org
http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/announce

From jdm at moylan.us  Tue Nov 16 17:48:19 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:48:19 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] dd misfire
Message-ID: <YZQ1MzpWczMO5bYb@alphacent.localdomain>


i'm running fc33 on a lenevo thinkpad, and as the following
will illustrate was trying to load fc35 onto a memory stick,
using the same commands i have used in the past.  it
obviously did not work.  have i missed something?

moylan Downloads[1140] ls -l Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 moylan moylan 2009333760 211116:1256 Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
moylan Downloads[1141] df
Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
devtmpfs        3.8G  3.8G     0 100% /dev
tmpfs           3.8G   83M  3.7G   3% /dev/shm
tmpfs           1.5G  1.9M  1.5G   1% /run
/dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /
tmpfs           3.8G   25M  3.8G   1% /tmp
/dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /home
/dev/sda1       976M  282M  628M  31% /boot
tmpfs           765M  524K  764M   1% /run/user/1000
/dev/sdb         58G   50G  4.7G  92% /run/media/moylan/BCKUP1l
/dev/sdc1        15G  8.0K   15G   1% /run/media/moylan/STORE N GO
moylan Downloads[1145] sudo dd bs=4M if=Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso of=/dev/sbc
479+1 records in
479+1 records out
2009333760 bytes (2.0 GB, 1.9 GiB) copied, 2.35622 s, 853 MB/s
moylan Downloads[1146] df
Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
devtmpfs        3.8G  3.8G     0 100% /dev
tmpfs           3.8G   79M  3.7G   3% /dev/shm
tmpfs           1.5G  1.9M  1.5G   1% /run
/dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /
tmpfs           3.8G   25M  3.8G   1% /tmp
/dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /home
/dev/sda1       976M  282M  628M  31% /boot
tmpfs           765M  524K  764M   1% /run/user/1000
/dev/sdb         58G   50G  4.7G  92% /run/media/moylan/BCKUP1l
/dev/sdc1        15G  8.0K   15G   1% /run/media/moylan/STORE N GO

ole dan

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From dsr at randomstring.org  Tue Nov 16 17:53:21 2021
From: dsr at randomstring.org (Dan Ritter)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:53:21 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] dd misfire
In-Reply-To: <YZQ1MzpWczMO5bYb@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZQ1MzpWczMO5bYb@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20211116225321.jcd34bxy7hdyfkmh@randomstring.org>

dan moylan wrote: 
> 
> i'm running fc33 on a lenevo thinkpad, and as the following
> will illustrate was trying to load fc35 onto a memory stick,
> using the same commands i have used in the past.  it
> obviously did not work.  have i missed something?
> 
> moylan Downloads[1140] ls -l Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
> -rw-r--r-- 1 moylan moylan 2009333760 211116:1256 Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
> moylan Downloads[1141] df
> Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
> devtmpfs        3.8G  3.8G     0 100% /dev
> tmpfs           3.8G   83M  3.7G   3% /dev/shm
> tmpfs           1.5G  1.9M  1.5G   1% /run
> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /
> tmpfs           3.8G   25M  3.8G   1% /tmp
> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /home
> /dev/sda1       976M  282M  628M  31% /boot
> tmpfs           765M  524K  764M   1% /run/user/1000
> /dev/sdb         58G   50G  4.7G  92% /run/media/moylan/BCKUP1l
> /dev/sdc1        15G  8.0K   15G   1% /run/media/moylan/STORE N GO
> moylan Downloads[1145] sudo dd bs=4M if=Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso of=/dev/sbc

You copied the .iso to a file named /dev/sbc.

Since it probably didn't exist, it was created. 

You might have meant /dev/sdc ?

But you shouldn't do that until after you unmount /dev/sdc1.

Typos.

-dsr-

From derek at ihtfp.com  Tue Nov 16 18:24:31 2021
From: derek at ihtfp.com (Derek Atkins)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 18:24:31 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] dd misfire
In-Reply-To: <YZQ1MzpWczMO5bYb@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZQ1MzpWczMO5bYb@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <17d2b10f398.27ea.ee0929d4f8247208f860e07266211506@ihtfp.com>

You wrote sbc, not sdc, for your device name.

-derek
Sent using my mobile device. Please excuse any typos.
On November 16, 2021 5:52:20 PM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:

> i'm running fc33 on a lenevo thinkpad, and as the following
> will illustrate was trying to load fc35 onto a memory stick,
> using the same commands i have used in the past.  it
> obviously did not work.  have i missed something?
>
> moylan Downloads[1140] ls -l Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
> -rw-r--r-- 1 moylan moylan 2009333760 211116:1256 
> Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
> moylan Downloads[1141] df
> Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
> devtmpfs        3.8G  3.8G     0 100% /dev
> tmpfs           3.8G   83M  3.7G   3% /dev/shm
> tmpfs           1.5G  1.9M  1.5G   1% /run
> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /
> tmpfs           3.8G   25M  3.8G   1% /tmp
> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /home
> /dev/sda1       976M  282M  628M  31% /boot
> tmpfs           765M  524K  764M   1% /run/user/1000
> /dev/sdb         58G   50G  4.7G  92% /run/media/moylan/BCKUP1l
> /dev/sdc1        15G  8.0K   15G   1% /run/media/moylan/STORE N GO
> moylan Downloads[1145] sudo dd bs=4M 
> if=Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso of=/dev/sbc
> 479+1 records in
> 479+1 records out
> 2009333760 bytes (2.0 GB, 1.9 GiB) copied, 2.35622 s, 853 MB/s
> moylan Downloads[1146] df
> Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
> devtmpfs        3.8G  3.8G     0 100% /dev
> tmpfs           3.8G   79M  3.7G   3% /dev/shm
> tmpfs           1.5G  1.9M  1.5G   1% /run
> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /
> tmpfs           3.8G   25M  3.8G   1% /tmp
> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /home
> /dev/sda1       976M  282M  628M  31% /boot
> tmpfs           765M  524K  764M   1% /run/user/1000
> /dev/sdb         58G   50G  4.7G  92% /run/media/moylan/BCKUP1l
> /dev/sdc1        15G  8.0K   15G   1% /run/media/moylan/STORE N GO
>
> ole dan
>
> j. daniel moylan
> 84 harvard ave
> brookline, ma 02446-6202
> 617-777-0207 (cel)
> jdm at moylan.us
> www.moylan.us
> [BLM]
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


From jdm at moylan.us  Tue Nov 16 23:01:31 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:01:31 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] dd misfire
Message-ID: <YZR+m22bkaArCLTA@alphacent.localdomain>


dan ritter <dsr at randomstring.org> writes:
> dan moylan wrote:

>> i'm running fc33 on a lenevo thinkpad, and as the following
>> will illustrate was trying to load fc35 onto a memory stick,
>> using the same commands i have used in the past.  it
>> obviously did not work.  have i missed something?
>>
>> moylan Downloads[1140] ls -l Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 moylan moylan 2009333760 211116:1256 Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso
>> moylan Downloads[1141] df
>> Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>> devtmpfs        3.8G  3.8G     0 100% /dev
>> tmpfs           3.8G   83M  3.7G   3% /dev/shm
>> tmpfs           1.5G  1.9M  1.5G   1% /run
>> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /
>> tmpfs           3.8G   25M  3.8G   1% /tmp
>> /dev/sda2       111G   76G   36G  69% /home
>> /dev/sda1       976M  282M  628M  31% /boot
>> tmpfs           765M  524K  764M   1% /run/user/1000
>> /dev/sdb         58G   50G  4.7G  92% /run/media/moylan/BCKUP1l
>> /dev/sdc1        15G  8.0K   15G   1% /run/media/moylan/STORE N GO
>> moylan Downloads[1145] sudo dd bs=4M if?dora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-35-1.2.iso of=/dev/sbc

> You copied the .iso to a file named /dev/sbc.
> Since it probably didn't exist, it was created.
> You might have meant /dev/sdc ?

funny how one can review an error a dozen times and not see it.

> But you shouldn't do that until after you unmount /dev/sdc1.

ooops.

thank you.  all is well.

ole dan

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From jdm at moylan.us  Wed Nov 17 15:21:23 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:21:23 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] fc35 installation issues
Message-ID: <YZVkQ1TDdMBPOO6p@alphacent.localdomain>


booted nuc-10 from fresh memory stick and attempted
installation.

----------------------------------------
device selection
ATA SATA SSD  check

automatic
----------------------------------------
selected disks & boot loader
AtA SATA SSD  check
close
----------------------------------------
reclaim space
delete
reclaim space
----------------------------------------
error checking storage configuration

???
went through the cycle three times, same result.
what  have i missed?

ole dan

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From me at mattgillen.net  Fri Nov 19 22:06:12 2021
From: me at mattgillen.net (Matthew Gillen)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:06:12 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] fc35 installation issues
In-Reply-To: <YZVkQ1TDdMBPOO6p@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZVkQ1TDdMBPOO6p@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <85250ae7-d933-7ab5-4d85-3571f914ca1f@mattgillen.net>

After the error, check some of the other virtual terminals 
(cntl-alt-F[2,3,4,5,6]) to see if there's something useful in the 
textual logs.
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/install-guide/install/Installing_Using_Anaconda/

("Accessing Consoles")

Are you having it create a new GPT partition table?  If any partition is 
over 2TB you might have issues (depending on disk manufacturer) unless 
you're using a GPT partition table.

HTH,
Matt


On 11/17/2021 3:21 PM, dan moylan wrote:
> 
> booted nuc-10 from fresh memory stick and attempted
> installation.
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> device selection
> ATA SATA SSD  check
> 
> automatic
> ----------------------------------------
> selected disks & boot loader
> AtA SATA SSD  check
> close
> ----------------------------------------
> reclaim space
> delete
> reclaim space
> ----------------------------------------
> error checking storage configuration
> 
> ???
> went through the cycle three times, same result.
> what  have i missed?
> 
> ole dan
> 
> j. daniel moylan
> 84 harvard ave
> brookline, ma 02446-6202
> 617-777-0207 (cel)
> jdm at moylan.us
> www.moylan.us
> [BLM]
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 

From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 07:29:57 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 07:29:57 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] fc35 installation issues
In-Reply-To: <85250ae7-d933-7ab5-4d85-3571f914ca1f@mattgillen.net>
References: <YZVkQ1TDdMBPOO6p@alphacent.localdomain>
 <85250ae7-d933-7ab5-4d85-3571f914ca1f@mattgillen.net>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogEa-xHqgsq+ejcTgCZBwCujCmWtPXXS3rSsP=S-QxhoQg@mail.gmail.com>

Additionally, does the livecd boot. Does fedora 34 install.

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 10:08 PM Matthew Gillen <me at mattgillen.net> wrote:

> After the error, check some of the other virtual terminals
> (cntl-alt-F[2,3,4,5,6]) to see if there's something useful in the
> textual logs.
>
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/install-guide/install/Installing_Using_Anaconda/
>
> ("Accessing Consoles")
>
> Are you having it create a new GPT partition table?  If any partition is
> over 2TB you might have issues (depending on disk manufacturer) unless
> you're using a GPT partition table.
>
> HTH,
> Matt
>
>
> On 11/17/2021 3:21 PM, dan moylan wrote:
> >
> > booted nuc-10 from fresh memory stick and attempted
> > installation.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > device selection
> > ATA SATA SSD  check
> >
> > automatic
> > ----------------------------------------
> > selected disks & boot loader
> > AtA SATA SSD  check
> > close
> > ----------------------------------------
> > reclaim space
> > delete
> > reclaim space
> > ----------------------------------------
> > error checking storage configuration
> >
> > ???
> > went through the cycle three times, same result.
> > what  have i missed?
> >
> > ole dan
> >
> > j. daniel moylan
> > 84 harvard ave
> > brookline, ma 02446-6202
> > 617-777-0207 (cel)
> > jdm at moylan.us
> > www.moylan.us
> > [BLM]
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing list
> > Discuss at lists.blu.org
> > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From jdm at moylan.us  Sat Nov 20 09:19:08 2021
From: jdm at moylan.us (dan moylan)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 09:19:08 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] fc35 installation issues
Message-ID: <YZkD3C0gXg0Pdrci@alphacent.localdomain>


i didn't go back to the nuc-10 for several days, being
occupied with other concerns, but friday, after moving back
to the aoc monitor, i tapped enter a couple of times and up
comes a screen asking for my name, and then another asking
me to set a password, and then seemingly i'm in -- fc35 is
all installed and i was liveuser.  i rebooted, got the
normal login screen, logged in and voila!  df showed
everything in place.  what the hell?

fwiw i had selected the auto-configuration, deleting
everything on my 250GB ss disk.

now busy upgrading, setting up my data bases and installing
all the missing pieces.  ah, sweet mystery of life!  thanks
for your suggestions.

ole dan

jerry feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com> writes:

> Additionally, does the livecd boot. Does fedora 34 install.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 10:08 PM Matthew Gillen <me at mattgillen.net> wrote:

> After the error, check some of the other virtual terminals
> (cntl-alt-F[2,3,4,5,6]) to see if there's something useful in the
> textual logs.
>
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/install-guide/install/Installing_Using_Anaconda/
>
> ("Accessing Consoles")
>
> Are you having it create a new GPT partition table?  If any partition is
> over 2TB you might have issues (depending on disk manufacturer) unless
> you're using a GPT partition table.
>
> On 11/17/2021 3:21 PM, dan moylan wrote:
> >
> > booted nuc-10 from fresh memory stick and attempted
> > installation.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > device selection
> > ATA SATA SSD  check
> >
> > automatic
> > ----------------------------------------
> > selected disks & boot loader
> > AtA SATA SSD  check
> > close
> > ----------------------------------------
> > reclaim space
> > delete
> > reclaim space
> > ----------------------------------------
> > error checking storage configuration
> >
> > ???
> > went through the cycle three times, same result.
> > what  have i missed?

j. daniel moylan
84 harvard ave
brookline, ma 02446-6202
617-777-0207 (cel)
jdm at moylan.us
www.moylan.us
[BLM]

From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 09:45:45 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 09:45:45 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] fc35 installation issues
In-Reply-To: <YZkD3C0gXg0Pdrci@alphacent.localdomain>
References: <YZkD3C0gXg0Pdrci@alphacent.localdomain>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogFj9z0ze01J9P1h9PpjJTUyksiy3O7J2t=kq4rTF7G6rA@mail.gmail.com>

Glad it is working now

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 9:21 AM dan moylan <jdm at moylan.us> wrote:

>
> i didn't go back to the nuc-10 for several days, being
> occupied with other concerns, but friday, after moving back
> to the aoc monitor, i tapped enter a couple of times and up
> comes a screen asking for my name, and then another asking
> me to set a password, and then seemingly i'm in -- fc35 is
> all installed and i was liveuser.  i rebooted, got the
> normal login screen, logged in and voila!  df showed
> everything in place.  what the hell?
>
> fwiw i had selected the auto-configuration, deleting
> everything on my 250GB ss disk.
>
> now busy upgrading, setting up my data bases and installing
> all the missing pieces.  ah, sweet mystery of life!  thanks
> for your suggestions.
>
> ole dan
>
> jerry feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Additionally, does the livecd boot. Does fedora 34 install.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 10:08 PM Matthew Gillen <me at mattgillen.net> wrote:
>
> > After the error, check some of the other virtual terminals
> > (cntl-alt-F[2,3,4,5,6]) to see if there's something useful in the
> > textual logs.
> >
> >
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/install-guide/install/Installing_Using_Anaconda/
> >
> > ("Accessing Consoles")
> >
> > Are you having it create a new GPT partition table?  If any partition is
> > over 2TB you might have issues (depending on disk manufacturer) unless
> > you're using a GPT partition table.
> >
> > On 11/17/2021 3:21 PM, dan moylan wrote:
> > >
> > > booted nuc-10 from fresh memory stick and attempted
> > > installation.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------
> > > device selection
> > > ATA SATA SSD  check
> > >
> > > automatic
> > > ----------------------------------------
> > > selected disks & boot loader
> > > AtA SATA SSD  check
> > > close
> > > ----------------------------------------
> > > reclaim space
> > > delete
> > > reclaim space
> > > ----------------------------------------
> > > error checking storage configuration
> > >
> > > ???
> > > went through the cycle three times, same result.
> > > what  have i missed?
>
> j. daniel moylan
> 84 harvard ave
> brookline, ma 02446-6202
> 617-777-0207 (cel)
> jdm at moylan.us
> www.moylan.us
> [BLM]
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From jabr at blu.org  Sun Nov 21 13:03:06 2021
From: jabr at blu.org (John Abreau)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 13:03:06 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>

"EPT" == Eastern Prevailing Time? Um, nope. The correct way to disambiguate
it is to say "US/Eastern".

Snarking about Daylight Savings just makes them sound unprofessional.Get
over it already!

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 9:13 AM Kurt L Keville <kkeville at mit.edu> wrote:

> I don't think... do zombies eat livers?
>
> https://beowulfbash.com/?
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>


-- 
John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
Email jabr at blu.org / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6

From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 13:11:36 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 13:11:36 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogEu9us_kFQfrAPW18uYiKfua6e+iN66fgek5nrfTcfNZg@mail.gmail.com>

How about 14:00 Zulu time.

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 1:05 PM John Abreau <jabr at blu.org> wrote:

> "EPT" == Eastern Prevailing Time? Um, nope. The correct way to disambiguate
> it is to say "US/Eastern".
>
> Snarking about Daylight Savings just makes them sound unprofessional.Get
> over it already!
>
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 9:13 AM Kurt L Keville <kkeville at mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > I don't think... do zombies eat livers?
> >
> > https://beowulfbash.com/?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing list
> > Discuss at lists.blu.org
> > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
> Email jabr at blu.org / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
> PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From bill.n1vux at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 13:54:22 2021
From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 13:54:22 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 1:04 PM John Abreau <jabr at blu.org> wrote:

> "EPT" == Eastern Prevailing Time? Um, nope.


Who promulgated that? (I gather it's got some uptake in texting circles.)

> *The* correct way to disambiguate it is to say "US/Eastern".
>

In the Zoneinfo/Olson universe, that's spelled "*America/New_York*"

In the context of a presumed US audience, *another* correct "whichever is
in effect" abbreviation is "*ET*".
All of the above presume that the reader has the capability to convert
mechanically without knowing if DST is in effect or not.
Probably true in online communications ... but whether the reader knows how
to use their at-hand capability is a different question.
(Alas specifying UTC-5:00 won't help the latter folks either.)

From kkeville at mit.edu  Sun Nov 21 19:57:00 2021
From: kkeville at mit.edu (Kurt L Keville)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 00:57:00 +0000
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>

Sen Markey is trying to outlaw Daylight Savings Time... a rare bipartisan issue apparently...

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/sen-ed-markey-pushes-to-end-daylight-savings-springing-forward-and-falling-back/2326601/?


?


________________________________
From: Bill Ricker <bill.n1vux at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2021 1:54 PM
To: John Abreau
Cc: Kurt L Keville; discuss at lists.blu.org
Subject: Re: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered



On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 1:04 PM John Abreau <jabr at blu.org<mailto:jabr at blu.org>> wrote:
"EPT" == Eastern Prevailing Time? Um, nope.

Who promulgated that? (I gather it's got some uptake in texting circles.)
The correct way to disambiguate it is to say "US/Eastern".

In the Zoneinfo/Olson universe, that's spelled "America/New_York"

In the context of a presumed US audience, another correct "whichever is in effect" abbreviation is "ET".
All of the above presume that the reader has the capability to convert mechanically without knowing if DST is in effect or not.
Probably true in online communications ... but whether the reader knows how to use their at-hand capability is a different question.
(Alas specifying UTC-5:00 won't help the latter folks either.)


From bill.n1vux at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 20:12:45 2021
From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 20:12:45 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 7:57 PM Kurt L Keville <kkeville at mit.edu> wrote:

> Sen Markey is trying to outlaw Daylight Savings Time... a rare bipartisan
> issue apparently...
>
IIRC, the US was on permanent DST during The War. (Some areas may have had
Double Summer Time ? I'd have to poke the Olson File to see where.)

Mass Legislature has discussed this separately as well.
They might as well just legislate Boston's latitude to 30?N ?

Doing it nationally makes a lot more sense than state by state or even
regionally.

The reality is there just isn't enough daylight mid-winter here to work a
full shift and commute, let alone shovel, no matter whether you call it
7.15am-4.30pm or 8.15am-5.30pm .
What we REALLY need (especially from 40?N and up) is FLEX TIME so that
people can do what they can in the dark and do what they must in what
little light there is.
Being half the year on the same TZ offset as Canadian Maritimes and half
the year on the same TZ offset as NYC would be f***ing awkward.
This only makes sense if NY does the same as we do.
If Boston and NYC (and Boston exchange, NY exchange, AMEX, TV network HQs)
declare a new normal *together,* as with i95 touchless tolling the rest of
New England and NJ will fall in line for convenience whether they
theoretically agree or not. But going it alone would be insane without our
neigbors.

Does it really count as Bipartisan if you've got a handful of senators &
reps from both parties grandstanding to populists at home on this issue
while it dies in committee for a third time
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Protection_Act>? OTOH, if this
issue can get SENs Rubio and Markey working across the aisle, maybe it'll
be catching.

From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 20:28:59 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 20:28:59 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogGhbMwzrSLr6sWtCxVyxHXYK1FO0Zwv2EKBTqPxgD-x0A@mail.gmail.com>

Good

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 7:59 PM Kurt L Keville <kkeville at mit.edu> wrote:

> Sen Markey is trying to outlaw Daylight Savings Time... a rare bipartisan
> issue apparently...
>
>
> https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/sen-ed-markey-pushes-to-end-daylight-savings-springing-forward-and-falling-back/2326601/
> ?
>
>
> ?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bill Ricker <bill.n1vux at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2021 1:54 PM
> To: John Abreau
> Cc: Kurt L Keville; discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 1:04 PM John Abreau <jabr at blu.org<mailto:
> jabr at blu.org>> wrote:
> "EPT" == Eastern Prevailing Time? Um, nope.
>
> Who promulgated that? (I gather it's got some uptake in texting circles.)
> The correct way to disambiguate it is to say "US/Eastern".
>
> In the Zoneinfo/Olson universe, that's spelled "America/New_York"
>
> In the context of a presumed US audience, another correct "whichever is in
> effect" abbreviation is "ET".
> All of the above presume that the reader has the capability to convert
> mechanically without knowing if DST is in effect or not.
> Probably true in online communications ... but whether the reader knows
> how to use their at-hand capability is a different question.
> (Alas specifying UTC-5:00 won't help the latter folks either.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From kkeville at mit.edu  Sun Nov 21 20:51:43 2021
From: kkeville at mit.edu (Kurt L Keville)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 01:51:43 +0000
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>,
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>

There are certainly fewer justifications for this since we migrated off a farming-first economy (which was what, a century ago? Just about the time the US adopted DST?)


Maybe when the Senate sends the Infrastructure Bill back to committee they can mandate a certain percentage of the workforce has to be remote workers. Then, like Bill says, people can move the "work" hours to the appropriate level of sunlight ...


________________________________
From: Bill Ricker <bill.n1vux at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2021 8:12 PM
To: Kurt L Keville
Cc: John Abreau; discuss at lists.blu.org; klk
Subject: Re: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered



On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 7:57 PM Kurt L Keville <kkeville at mit.edu<mailto:kkeville at mit.edu>> wrote:

Sen Markey is trying to outlaw Daylight Savings Time... a rare bipartisan issue apparently...

IIRC, the US was on permanent DST during The War. (Some areas may have had Double Summer Time ? I'd have to poke the Olson File to see where.)

Mass Legislature has discussed this separately as well.
They might as well just legislate Boston's latitude to 30?N ?

Doing it nationally makes a lot more sense than state by state or even regionally.

The reality is there just isn't enough daylight mid-winter here to work a full shift and commute, let alone shovel, no matter whether you call it 7.15am-4.30pm or 8.15am-5.30pm .
What we REALLY need (especially from 40?N and up) is FLEX TIME so that people can do what they can in the dark and do what they must in what little light there is.
Being half the year on the same TZ offset as Canadian Maritimes and half the year on the same TZ offset as NYC would be f***ing awkward.
This only makes sense if NY does the same as we do.
If Boston and NYC (and Boston exchange, NY exchange, AMEX, TV network HQs) declare a new normal together, as with i95 touchless tolling the rest of New England and NJ will fall in line for convenience whether they theoretically agree or not. But going it alone would be insane without our neigbors.

Does it really count as Bipartisan if you've got a handful of senators & reps from both parties grandstanding to populists at home on this issue while it dies in committee for a third time<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Protection_Act>? OTOH, if this issue can get SENs Rubio and Markey working across the aisle, maybe it'll be catching.


From jabr at blu.org  Sun Nov 21 22:58:17 2021
From: jabr at blu.org (John Abreau)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 22:58:17 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the lily-livered
In-Reply-To: <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>

I look at Daylight Savings as a bizarre custom, one of a multitude of
similar customs, that can be mildly annoying but is trivially easy to cope
with, Heated efforts to repeal Daylight Savings strike me as being about as
silly and pointless as trying to outlaw Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
Just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying for.



On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 8:53 PM Kurt L Keville <kkeville at mit.edu> wrote:

> There are certainly fewer justifications for this since we migrated off a
> farming-first economy (which was what, a century ago? Just about the time
> the US adopted DST?)
>
>
> Maybe when the Senate sends the Infrastructure Bill back to committee they
> can mandate a certain percentage of the workforce has to be remote workers.
> Then, like Bill says, people can move the "work" hours to the appropriate
> level of sunlight ...
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Bill Ricker <bill.n1vux at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 21, 2021 8:12 PM
> *To:* Kurt L Keville
> *Cc:* John Abreau; discuss at lists.blu.org; klk
> *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 7:57 PM Kurt L Keville <kkeville at mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Sen Markey is trying to outlaw Daylight Savings Time... a rare bipartisan
>> issue apparently...
>>
> IIRC, the US was on permanent DST during The War. (Some areas may have had
> Double Summer Time ? I'd have to poke the Olson File to see where.)
>
> Mass Legislature has discussed this separately as well.
> They might as well just legislate Boston's latitude to 30?N ?
>
> Doing it nationally makes a lot more sense than state by state or even
> regionally.
>
> The reality is there just isn't enough daylight mid-winter here to work a
> full shift and commute, let alone shovel, no matter whether you call it
> 7.15am-4.30pm or 8.15am-5.30pm .
> What we REALLY need (especially from 40?N and up) is FLEX TIME so that
> people can do what they can in the dark and do what they must in what
> little light there is.
> Being half the year on the same TZ offset as Canadian Maritimes and half
> the year on the same TZ offset as NYC would be f***ing awkward.
> This only makes sense if NY does the same as we do.
> If Boston and NYC (and Boston exchange, NY exchange, AMEX, TV network HQs)
> declare a new normal *together,* as with i95 touchless tolling the rest
> of New England and NJ will fall in line for convenience whether they
> theoretically agree or not. But going it alone would be insane without our
> neigbors.
>
> Does it really count as Bipartisan if you've got a handful of senators &
> reps from both parties grandstanding to populists at home on this issue
> while it dies in committee for a third time
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Protection_Act>? OTOH, if this
> issue can get SENs Rubio and Markey working across the aisle, maybe it'll
> be catching.
>
>

-- 
John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
Email jabr at blu.org / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6

From richard.pieri at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 10:15:15 2021
From: richard.pieri at gmail.com (Rich Pieri)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:15:15 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
 lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 22:58:17 -0500
John Abreau <jabr at blu.org> wrote:

> I look at Daylight Savings as a bizarre custom, one of a multitude of
> similar customs, that can be mildly annoying but is trivially easy to
> cope with, Heated efforts to repeal Daylight Savings strike me as
> being about as silly and pointless as trying to outlaw Santa Claus
> and the Tooth Fairy. Just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying for.

If only. People literally die due to the stress caused by the shift.
Really. Stroke risk for at-risk people rises up to 8% in the days
following the DST change. Heart attack risk for at-risk people rises up
to 24%. So yeah, abolishing DST isn't just a silly windmill tilting
exercise, IMO.

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/10/26/can-daylight-saving-time-hurt-the-heart-prepare-now-for-spring

-- 
\m/ (--) \m/

From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov 22 11:04:47 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 08:04:47 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>

On 11/22/21 7:15 AM, Rich Pieri wrote:
> So yeah, abolishing DST isn't just a silly windmill tilting exercise, 
> IMO. 

My gripe with the abolitionists is that our ranks are infiltrated with a 
fifth-column: people aren't trying to abolish DST, they are trying to 
make DST permanent, year around.

A bunch of morning people who like to wake up before dawn, being bullies.


-kb, the Kent who keeps some of his clocks?the obscure ones he mostly 
forgets about anyway?on permanent Standard Time.


P.S. And what happens over time, when collective habits drift back to 
later in the day? Do the dictatorial morning people impose /another/ 
time zone change, put Boston on Greenland Time, to again make everyone 
get up early again? "Daylight Saving Time" really means "Make Everyone 
Get up Early Time".



From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 11:12:21 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:12:21 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>

Sundial clocks are the answer.

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 11:06 AM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:

> On 11/22/21 7:15 AM, Rich Pieri wrote:
> > So yeah, abolishing DST isn't just a silly windmill tilting exercise,
> > IMO.
>
> My gripe with the abolitionists is that our ranks are infiltrated with a
> fifth-column: people aren't trying to abolish DST, they are trying to
> make DST permanent, year around.
>
> A bunch of morning people who like to wake up before dawn, being bullies.
>
>
> -kb, the Kent who keeps some of his clocks?the obscure ones he mostly
> forgets about anyway?on permanent Standard Time.
>
>
> P.S. And what happens over time, when collective habits drift back to
> later in the day? Do the dictatorial morning people impose /another/
> time zone change, put Boston on Greenland Time, to again make everyone
> get up early again? "Daylight Saving Time" really means "Make Everyone
> Get up Early Time".
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From epp at sillydog.org  Mon Nov 22 11:19:55 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:19:55 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17f62a03-9808-cd5a-bfff-c0eced8ae23c@sillydog.org>

On 11/22/21 10:15, Rich Pieri wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 22:58:17 -0500
> John Abreau <jabr at blu.org> wrote:
>
>> I look at Daylight Savings as a bizarre custom, one of a multitude of
>> similar customs, that can be mildly annoying but is trivially easy to
>> cope with, Heated efforts to repeal Daylight Savings strike me as
>> being about as silly and pointless as trying to outlaw Santa Claus
>> and the Tooth Fairy. Just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying for.
> If only. People literally die due to the stress caused by the shift.
> Really. Stroke risk for at-risk people rises up to 8% in the days
> following the DST change. Heart attack risk for at-risk people rises up
> to 24%. So yeah, abolishing DST isn't just a silly windmill tilting
> exercise, IMO.
>
> https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/10/26/can-daylight-saving-time-hurt-the-heart-prepare-now-for-spring

DST will be abolished when Boston is added to the TZ database.


-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.


From richard.pieri at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 11:40:01 2021
From: richard.pieri at gmail.com (Rich Pieri)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:40:01 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
Message-ID: <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 08:04:47 -0800
Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:

> My gripe with the abolitionists is that our ranks are infiltrated
> with a fifth-column: people aren't trying to abolish DST, they are
> trying to make DST permanent, year around.

DST is not a time zone. DST is "daylight savings time", the process of
changing the clocks twice a year. "Abolish DST" means getting rid of
that process.

Many of us, myself included, prefer UTC-4 to UTC-5 for Boston because it
makes both dawn *AND DUSK* later in the day according to wall clock
time.

Calling me a bully for that is not appreciated and I ask you to keep
your insults to yourself, thank you very much.

-- 
\m/ (--) \m/

From eric.chadbourne at icloud.com  Mon Nov 22 11:39:59 2021
From: eric.chadbourne at icloud.com (Eric Chadbourne)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:39:59 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
	the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4E4429D-AAFC-47CE-83E6-3DB3CDE6EB27@icloud.com>


> On Nov 22, 2021, at 11:16 AM, Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Sundial clocks are the answer.
> 

^ Best answer!

- Eric


From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov 22 12:51:39 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:51:39 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>

On 11/22/21 8:40 AM, Rich Pieri wrote:
> DST is not a time zone. DST is "daylight savings time", the process of 
> changing the clocks twice a year. "Abolish DST" means getting rid of 
> that process.


Two different issues:

1. Changing clocks or not?

2. And if we stop, when do we stop, in the fall or in the spring?

In the summer Boston's time zone is EDT*. Morning people want to change 
the clocks just one last time?as long as it is in the spring, leaving 
Boston on permanent EDT, but many of realize that has a bad look, so 
they want to *say* it is actually Atlantic Standard Time. Seems 
dishonest. Really it would be year around daylight saving time.


All my life I've had a lot of cheery people have been turning on lights 
and making noise and arranging activities and expecting me to be alert 
and functional and friendly far too early in the morning. I've always 
thought they were insensitive, but now that they seem to have formed an 
organized movement determined to make me get up an hour early forever, 
and I don't feel so generous. It is starting to feel like it has been 
bullying all along.


-kb, the Kent who wants civilian 12 noon to be as close to solar high 
noon as can be arranged, without causing train wrecks.


* Daylight saving (not "savings") time is a series of timezones. We 
don't change the time twice a year, no, the time stays the same. What we 
do is adopt a different timezone twice a year. EST exists all year. EDT 
exists all year. We observe one in the summer and the other in the 
winter, but they both exist all year. (When people post that 
such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on July-something-th, I always try 
to resist the pedantic urge to correct.) A lot of computer bugs (MS 
Windows?) have been because people don't understand that and actually 
have computer time change, and sometimes changing twice by mistake, or 
maybe not change twice but maybe have overnight timed jobs occasionally 
happen twice or never because they were based on just "time". The 
correct way is not change the time but to adopt the appropriate timezone 
(Linux and Unix do this correctly). Unambiguous whether it has been done 
or not, harmless to do twice in quick succession?because maybe cron 
launched that job twice for some reason?safe to schedule things in the 
wee hours without risk of them happening twice or never a couple nights 
a year.


From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov 22 12:56:50 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:56:50 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org>

On 11/22/21 8:12 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> Sundial clocks are the answer.

I like them. But still have to pick what to calibrate to.

I have mused with the idea of Somerville Solar Time, referenced to the 
Prospect Hill Meridian! Get hip businesses to hang clocks synced to 
Somerville Solar Time. It has a nice retro yet computerized quality.

-kb, the Kent who hasn't gotten around to it, engineering the clocks, 
websites, publicity, maintenance, etc.



From mark at buttery.org  Mon Nov 22 13:08:28 2021
From: mark at buttery.org (=?UTF-8?B?U2hpcmxleSBNw6FycXVleiBEw7psY2V5?=)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:08:28 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org>
Message-ID: <CAMdng5so75a_br1OX8=9kw=W41BmxVAAO0KGFcy=wLi=fGMFMw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm with Kent on this one. I hate the conspiracy of the morning people.

While we are at it, we should also redraw the US time zone boundaries to
more accurately reflect solar time. Ohio, Michigan, and all of Kentucky,
Tennessee, and Indiana should be in the Central time zone. (Parts of
Georgia and Florida as well; figuring out where to put the boundary is an
exercise for another day.) North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Oklahoma,
and Texas should be in the Mountain zone. Utah and Arizona should be in the
Pacific time zone, along with all of Idaho and Oregon. That realignment
would put noon within half an hour of solar noon for nearly everybody.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:57 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:

> On 11/22/21 8:12 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> > Sundial clocks are the answer.
>
> I like them. But still have to pick what to calibrate to.
>
> I have mused with the idea of Somerville Solar Time, referenced to the
> Prospect Hill Meridian! Get hip businesses to hang clocks synced to
> Somerville Solar Time. It has a nice retro yet computerized quality.
>
> -kb, the Kent who hasn't gotten around to it, engineering the clocks,
> websites, publicity, maintenance, etc.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From lconrad at laymusic.org  Mon Nov 22 13:11:55 2021
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:11:55 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
	the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org> (Kent Borg's
 message of "Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:56:50 -0800")
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org>
Message-ID: <87pmqs9i1g.fsf@laymusic.org>

>>>>> "Kent" == Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> writes:

    Kent> On 11/22/21 8:12 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
    >> Sundial clocks are the answer.

    Kent> I like them. But still have to pick what to calibrate to.

    Kent> I have mused with the idea of Somerville Solar Time, referenced to the
    Kent> Prospect Hill Meridian! Get hip businesses to hang clocks synced to
    Kent> Somerville Solar Time. It has a nice retro yet computerized quality.

Actually, I like the idea of abolishing all timezones and having time be
UTC everywhere, with the times for starting school or work picked to be
reasonable for the location.  

-- 
Laura   (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org)
(617) 661-8097	233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139   
<http://www.laymusic.org/> <http://www.serpentpublications.org>

At dawn, the magpie sings, and by day the black cockatoo wing their
way across a sunny sky.  The koala, possum, dingo and carpet snake are
silent on the land below.  A mist covers the mountains.  We and our
land are crying for you.

Eve Fesl, Matriarch of the Gubbi Gubbi tribe, eulogizing Steve Irwin


From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov 22 13:14:41 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:14:41 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <87pmqs9i1g.fsf@laymusic.org>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org> <87pmqs9i1g.fsf@laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <c7ece581-41dc-7516-630c-349c5f61b33e@borg.org>

On 11/22/21 10:11 AM, Laura Conrad wrote:
> Actually, I like the idea of abolishing all timezones and having time be
> UTC everywhere, with the times for starting school or work picked to be
> reasonable for the location.

Nice.

Years ago I had a two-timezone watch. I kept one on UTC.

-kb



From jim at gasek.net  Mon Nov 22 13:25:46 2021
From: jim at gasek.net (Jim Gasek)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:25:46 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
Message-ID: <20211122102546.C644DFCC@m0117459.ppops.net>

Abolish it, the changing of clocks.
Unnecessary.
I don't care which one people choose.
Who even says "8am" is a start time?
Or 5pm an end time?

I have always believed these kinds of stupid LAWS are a result of
politicians which will do ANYTHING to divert attention away from 
their infinite incompetence, or criminal activities.

Especially dumb things like so-called "daylight savings", 
which SAVES NOTHING.   Only causes unnecessary complexity.
Daylight isn't saved, just moved around.

It should be called "daylight moving".  

Hold politicians accountable.  
Make them call stuff what it really is.

Stop asking government to do things for us.  Anything.
They will gladly latch onto our stupid suggestions, rather than
do their jobs, do the needful.

Keep government small and efficient.

Politicians love bait and switch, shiny objects which divert 
attention away from important items, and onto unimportant ones.

Thanks,
Jim Gasek

From gaf.linux at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 13:25:37 2021
From: gaf.linux at gmail.com (Jerry Feldman)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:25:37 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <87pmqs9i1g.fsf@laymusic.org>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org> <87pmqs9i1g.fsf@laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <CAEvgogGSQnaGabZVQrWyxhEDx=zD=dZhnXnbyez+1iK_HCY9OA@mail.gmail.com>

Those of us who were in the military, especially aviation always used Zulu,
or UTC. we also used Jack Benny for radio frequencies.

--
Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 1:11 PM Laura Conrad <lconrad at laymusic.org> wrote:

> >>>>> "Kent" == Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> writes:
>
>     Kent> On 11/22/21 8:12 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
>     >> Sundial clocks are the answer.
>
>     Kent> I like them. But still have to pick what to calibrate to.
>
>     Kent> I have mused with the idea of Somerville Solar Time, referenced
> to the
>     Kent> Prospect Hill Meridian! Get hip businesses to hang clocks synced
> to
>     Kent> Somerville Solar Time. It has a nice retro yet computerized
> quality.
>
> Actually, I like the idea of abolishing all timezones and having time be
> UTC everywhere, with the times for starting school or work picked to be
> reasonable for the location.
>
> --
> Laura   (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org)
> (617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
> <http://www.laymusic.org/> <http://www.serpentpublications.org>
>
> At dawn, the magpie sings, and by day the black cockatoo wing their
> way across a sunny sky.  The koala, possum, dingo and carpet snake are
> silent on the land below.  A mist covers the mountains.  We and our
> land are crying for you.
>
> Eve Fesl, Matriarch of the Gubbi Gubbi tribe, eulogizing Steve Irwin
>
>

From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov 22 13:32:13 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:32:13 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211122102546.C644DFCC@m0117459.ppops.net>
References: <20211122102546.C644DFCC@m0117459.ppops.net>
Message-ID: <e3191424-c1c3-0285-a169-e2e04d12d6b8@borg.org>

On 11/22/21 10:25 AM, Jim Gasek wrote:
> politicians which will do ANYTHING to divert attention away from

I heard that it was commercial lobbies. Such as golf (I guess it used to 
be a bigger industry), they wanted people to get off work in time to 
play a few holes.

Also, retailers wanted it, thinking people would be out shopping more if 
they got off work an hour early.

Farmers hated it.

-kb, the Kent who is also old enough to remember the early water 
fluoridation wars.


From richard.pieri at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 13:33:58 2021
From: richard.pieri at gmail.com (Rich Pieri)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:33:58 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAMdng5so75a_br1OX8=9kw=W41BmxVAAO0KGFcy=wLi=fGMFMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <CAEvgogFvqma=G0FYcU6bfAV=SnBikZQP536uCnBuL+tj9L0d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <864bc5af-630e-0be8-dd88-12f6db36d7ce@borg.org>
 <CAMdng5so75a_br1OX8=9kw=W41BmxVAAO0KGFcy=wLi=fGMFMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20211122133358.0565d755.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:08:28 -0500
Shirley M?rquez D?lcey <mark at buttery.org> wrote:

> I'm with Kent on this one. I hate the conspiracy of the morning
> people.

Funny thing is? I'm very much *not* a morning person and I still want
the east cost to standardize on AST year-round.

So again, please stop being insulting. It's not necessary nor
appreciated.

-- 
\m/ (--) \m/

From jc at trillian.mit.edu  Mon Nov 22 13:36:58 2021
From: jc at trillian.mit.edu (jc at trillian.mit.edu)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:36:58 +0000
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
	the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: 20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com
References: 20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com,
 <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20211022183658.43669.jc@trillian.mit.edu>

| John Abreau <jabr at blu.org> wrote:
|
| > I look at Daylight Savings as a bizarre custom, one of a multitude of
| > similar customs, that can be mildly annoying but is trivially easy to
| > cope with, Heated efforts to repeal Daylight Savings strike me as
| > being about as silly and pointless as trying to outlaw Santa Claus
| > and the Tooth Fairy. Just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying for.

Some time back, I saw  a  fun  discussion  started  with  one  person
arguing  for  year-round  EDT in New Enland, followed by someone else
suggesting that instead, New England should switch to AST.   The  fun
part was the quick realization that a lot of people didn't understand
the difference, and got into rather nasty fights calling  each  other
all sorts of insulting names.

Since then I've often thought that this is a really good way to  mess
up  such  discussions,  and  we  should all be trying it whenever the
topic comes up.  ;-)


--
------------------------------------------------------
   _'
   O
 <:#/>  John Chambers
   +   <jc at trillian.mit.edu>
  /#\  <jc1742 at gmail.com>
  | |


From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov 22 14:55:41 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:55:41 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211022183658.43669.jc@trillian.mit.edu>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211022183658.43669.jc@trillian.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <d18aea68-cf8c-f0a3-e2f2-365e60065e72@borg.org>

On 11/22/21 10:36 AM, jc at trillian.mit.edu wrote:
> Some time back, I saw  a  fun  discussion  started  with  one  person
> arguing  for  year-round  EDT in New Enland, followed by someone else
> suggesting that instead, New England should switch to AST.   The  fun
> part was the quick realization that a lot of people didn't understand
> the difference, and got into rather nasty fights calling  each  other
> all sorts of insulting names.
>
> Since then I've often thought that this is a really good way to  mess
> up  such  discussions,  and  we  should all be trying it whenever the
> topic comes up.  ;-)

I love it! Ask those year-arounders whether they want EDT or AST, and 
then argue for the opposite.


Time is real simple. And very useful for predicting and scheduling and 
synchronizing stuff.

The very useful aspects mean we layer lots extra important stuff on top 
of it: where the sun will be in the sky, seasons, birthdays, religious 
holidays (haven't wars been fought over when is Easter?), precise 
durations, predictable decompositions, etc. And let's also change our 
clocks twice a year, in most but not all places, and let's do it on 
dates which are not consistent from one participating place to place nor 
from year to year. Also allow local officials to change timezone for 
arbitrary reasons, changing their minds form time to time, including 
fractional timezones!

Which means time is no longer simple. But multi-year mortgage and bond 
calculations still need to be correct.

At first glance time still looks simple, and that's when people start 
writing bugs.

When I was born the second was defined as a specific fraction of a day, 
which meant the length of a second was variable depending on what the 
earth was up to. When I was a little kid the second was redefined to be 
of a fixed length, and it was the *day* that became of variable length; 
the second was heretofore defined as rock-solid.

Nope. Youngsters know time is simple and still write code that assumes 
things are today as they were when I was born: a second is a fixed 
fraction of a day.

So because programmers think time is simple, we have a fairly new 
(fuzzy) Google definition of the second. Mostly it is dang precise and 
stable, but every year or so, it starts to slew wildly away from its 
usual precise duration and then slew wildly back, all to avoid leap 
seconds that would trigger bugs where programmers thought they knew that 
a minute would always have 60-seconds. (Silly of them.)

I say fuzzy because I am pretty sure how and when the slewing happens is 
not well defined, is probably not consistent from one leap second to the 
next. And this odd time standard is distributed via NTP, which was not 
intended to distribute a non-stable reference, so the result is going to 
be a mess from any time-standardization perspective. But at least it 
won't trigger any brand new 60-second-per-minute bugs.

And god help any programs that crazily assume a second is of fixed 
length, but then get hooked up to Google time.

Time is complicated.

-kb






From abreauj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 18:00:54 2021
From: abreauj at gmail.com (John Abreau)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:00:54 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
Message-ID: <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:
[....]

> (When people post that such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on
> July-something-th, I always try
> to resist the pedantic urge to correct.)

[....]

Correct what? In July we're using EDT, so 4PM EDT in July is correct
already.

I gotta say, I didn't expect my original post to open up such a hornet's
nest. All I was trying to say is (1) complaining about DST in an
announcement for a professional seminar that has nothing to do with
timezones seems unprofessional; (2) making up yet another way to refer to
timezones (EPT) is counterproductive and only adds to the existing
confusion; and (3) using something like "US/Eastern" instead of "EST" and
"EDT" unambiguously conveys the correct information without the need to
think about DST.


-- 
John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
Email: abreauj at gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6

From eric.chadbourne at icloud.com  Mon Nov 22 18:11:38 2021
From: eric.chadbourne at icloud.com (Eric Chadbourne)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:11:38 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
	the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F3DB8C8-21ED-42E0-A946-BE3254FCF4D1@icloud.com>

At about the Unix epoch a wise band once asked, does anybody really know what rime it is?  https://youtu.be/ekGWkL0Jh-4

Eric 

Chadbourne.Consulting

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 6:02 PM, John Abreau <abreauj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:
> [....]
> 
>> (When people post that such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on
>> July-something-th, I always try
>> to resist the pedantic urge to correct.)
> 
> [....]
> 
> Correct what? In July we're using EDT, so 4PM EDT in July is correct
> already.
> 
> I gotta say, I didn't expect my original post to open up such a hornet's
> nest. All I was trying to say is (1) complaining about DST in an
> announcement for a professional seminar that has nothing to do with
> timezones seems unprofessional; (2) making up yet another way to refer to
> timezones (EPT) is counterproductive and only adds to the existing
> confusion; and (3) using something like "US/Eastern" instead of "EST" and
> "EDT" unambiguously conveys the correct information without the need to
> think about DST.
> 
> 
> -- 
> John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
> Email: abreauj at gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
> PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

From kentborg at borg.org  Mon Nov 22 18:21:23 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:21:23 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1636726301632.98778@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs7aoz=MVvUBXrmw1=Jerh70ebE4Pofj5LY8n3ibRiqinA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03f4feb1-2826-54ac-9fd1-41db7b7442ab@borg.org>

On 11/22/21 3:00 PM, John Abreau wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org 
> <mailto:kentborg at borg.org>> wrote:
> [....]
>
>     (When people post that such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on
>     July-something-th, I always try
>     to resist the pedantic urge to correct.) 
>
> [....]
>
> Correct what? In July we're using EDT, so 4PM EDT in July is correct 
> already.


Oops!


I meant EST.


-kb



From epp at sillydog.org  Mon Nov 22 18:35:02 2021
From: epp at sillydog.org (Edward)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:35:02 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <3F3DB8C8-21ED-42E0-A946-BE3254FCF4D1@icloud.com>
References: <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3F3DB8C8-21ED-42E0-A946-BE3254FCF4D1@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <e31ddbd8-c727-7fad-720b-0ced45377514@sillydog.org>

Time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tI1_KlO6xI


-- 
If it doesn't work right out of the box, they're in the wrong business.


From malassimilation at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 18:50:58 2021
From: malassimilation at gmail.com (Bill Horne)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:50:58 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <3F3DB8C8-21ED-42E0-A946-BE3254FCF4D1@icloud.com>
References: <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3F3DB8C8-21ED-42E0-A946-BE3254FCF4D1@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <b237e996-194d-9b89-2aec-1efdc5ec6a23@gmail.com>

On 11/22/2021 6:11 PM, Eric Chadbourne wrote:
> At about the Unix epoch a wise band once asked, does anybody really know what time it is?https://youtu.be/ekGWkL0Jh-4
>
> Eric

I used to work in the Verizon Engineering department which handled 
"timing," i.e. the equipment and procedures needed to synchronize 
digital transmission systems running at speeds over 44 Mbps. We used to 
buy Cesium-based reference clocks which were accurate to within one 
second in 100 years, but the bean counters made us switch to GPS, which 
ended a long series of vendor-provided steak dinners, ? and forced us 
to account for an entirely new set of uncertainties.

We always had a running joke that we would play on everyone during the 
day after the time changeover: when someone asked "what time is it?" we 
would all shout "Nobody Knows!" and start laughing.

Bill

From genuineaudio at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 00:27:28 2021
From: genuineaudio at gmail.com (Stuart Conner)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:27:28 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33425.1637622727.7345.discuss@lists.blu.org>
References: <mailman.33425.1637622727.7345.discuss@lists.blu.org>
Message-ID: <6B3AFC6D-833E-4C37-9530-1331EF765E45@gmail.com>

While I greatly admire Ben Franklin, I have to concede daylight time isn?t much use to modern society. It was invented for farmers, who get up with the light, or before, to not feel like it?s an ungodly hour on the clock. 
In middle and higher latitudes sunrise and sunset shift by more than an hour from solstice to solstice, (5-ish for New England)so it really doesn?t do much. After it got extended to 8 months of the year instead of 6, it makes even less sense. 
Having said that, UTC does make sense for computers and internet coordination, but I?m personally not ready for one world time (and government to follow).
Stu

Sent from my phone

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 6:15 PM, discuss-request at lists.blu.org wrote:
> 
> ?Send Discuss mailing list submissions to
>    discuss at lists.blu.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>    http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>    discuss-request at lists.blu.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>    discuss-owner at lists.blu.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Discuss digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
>      lily-livered) (Kent Borg)
>   2. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
>      lily-livered) (Jim Gasek)
>   3. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
>      lily-livered) (Jerry Feldman)
>   4. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
>      lily-livered) (Kent Borg)
>   5. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
>      lily-livered) (Rich Pieri)
>   6. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for    the
>      lily-livered) (jc at trillian.mit.edu)
>   7. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
>      lily-livered) (Kent Borg)
>   8. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
>      lily-livered) (John Abreau)
>   9. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for    the
>      lily-livered) (Eric Chadbourne)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:14:41 -0800
> From: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> To: Laura Conrad <lconrad at laymusic.org>
> Cc: BLU Discuss <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <c7ece581-41dc-7516-630c-349c5f61b33e at borg.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
>> On 11/22/21 10:11 AM, Laura Conrad wrote:
>> Actually, I like the idea of abolishing all timezones and having time be
>> UTC everywhere, with the times for starting school or work picked to be
>> reasonable for the location.
> 
> Nice.
> 
> Years ago I had a two-timezone watch. I kept one on UTC.
> 
> -kb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:25:46 -0800
> From: "Jim Gasek" <jim at gasek.net>
> To: "Kent Borg" <kentborg at borg.org>
> Cc: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <20211122102546.C644DFCC at m0117459.ppops.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Abolish it, the changing of clocks.
> Unnecessary.
> I don't care which one people choose.
> Who even says "8am" is a start time?
> Or 5pm an end time?
> 
> I have always believed these kinds of stupid LAWS are a result of
> politicians which will do ANYTHING to divert attention away from 
> their infinite incompetence, or criminal activities.
> 
> Especially dumb things like so-called "daylight savings", 
> which SAVES NOTHING.   Only causes unnecessary complexity.
> Daylight isn't saved, just moved around.
> 
> It should be called "daylight moving".  
> 
> Hold politicians accountable.  
> Make them call stuff what it really is.
> 
> Stop asking government to do things for us.  Anything.
> They will gladly latch onto our stupid suggestions, rather than
> do their jobs, do the needful.
> 
> Keep government small and efficient.
> 
> Politicians love bait and switch, shiny objects which divert 
> attention away from important items, and onto unimportant ones.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jim Gasek
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:25:37 -0500
> From: Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
> Cc: BLU Discuss <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID:
>    <CAEvgogGSQnaGabZVQrWyxhEDx=zD=dZhnXnbyez+1iK_HCY9OA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Those of us who were in the military, especially aviation always used Zulu,
> or UTC. we also used Jack Benny for radio frequencies.
> 
> --
> Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
> Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
> PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
> PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
> B B6E7
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 1:11 PM Laura Conrad <lconrad at laymusic.org> wrote:
> 
>>>>>>> "Kent" == Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> writes:
>> 
>>    Kent> On 11/22/21 8:12 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
>>>> Sundial clocks are the answer.
>> 
>>    Kent> I like them. But still have to pick what to calibrate to.
>> 
>>    Kent> I have mused with the idea of Somerville Solar Time, referenced
>> to the
>>    Kent> Prospect Hill Meridian! Get hip businesses to hang clocks synced
>> to
>>    Kent> Somerville Solar Time. It has a nice retro yet computerized
>> quality.
>> 
>> Actually, I like the idea of abolishing all timezones and having time be
>> UTC everywhere, with the times for starting school or work picked to be
>> reasonable for the location.
>> 
>> --
>> Laura   (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org)
>> (617) 661-8097  233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
>> <http://www.laymusic.org/> <http://www.serpentpublications.org>
>> 
>> At dawn, the magpie sings, and by day the black cockatoo wing their
>> way across a sunny sky.  The koala, possum, dingo and carpet snake are
>> silent on the land below.  A mist covers the mountains.  We and our
>> land are crying for you.
>> 
>> Eve Fesl, Matriarch of the Gubbi Gubbi tribe, eulogizing Steve Irwin
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:32:13 -0800
> From: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> To: jim at gasek.net
> Cc: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <e3191424-c1c3-0285-a169-e2e04d12d6b8 at borg.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
>> On 11/22/21 10:25 AM, Jim Gasek wrote:
>> politicians which will do ANYTHING to divert attention away from
> 
> I heard that it was commercial lobbies. Such as golf (I guess it used to 
> be a bigger industry), they wanted people to get off work in time to 
> play a few holes.
> 
> Also, retailers wanted it, thinking people would be out shopping more if 
> they got off work an hour early.
> 
> Farmers hated it.
> 
> -kb, the Kent who is also old enough to remember the early water 
> fluoridation wars.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:33:58 -0500
> From: Rich Pieri <richard.pieri at gmail.com>
> To: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <20211122133358.0565d755.Richard.Pieri at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:08:28 -0500
> Shirley M?rquez D?lcey <mark at buttery.org> wrote:
> 
>> I'm with Kent on this one. I hate the conspiracy of the morning
>> people.
> 
> Funny thing is? I'm very much *not* a morning person and I still want
> the east cost to standardize on AST year-round.
> 
> So again, please stop being insulting. It's not necessary nor
> appreciated.
> 
> -- 
> \m/ (--) \m/
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:36:58 +0000
> From: <jc at trillian.mit.edu>
> To: <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for    the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <20211022183658.43669.jc at trillian.mit.edu>
> 
> | John Abreau <jabr at blu.org> wrote:
> |
> | > I look at Daylight Savings as a bizarre custom, one of a multitude of
> | > similar customs, that can be mildly annoying but is trivially easy to
> | > cope with, Heated efforts to repeal Daylight Savings strike me as
> | > being about as silly and pointless as trying to outlaw Santa Claus
> | > and the Tooth Fairy. Just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying for.
> 
> Some time back, I saw  a  fun  discussion  started  with  one  person
> arguing  for  year-round  EDT in New Enland, followed by someone else
> suggesting that instead, New England should switch to AST.   The  fun
> part was the quick realization that a lot of people didn't understand
> the difference, and got into rather nasty fights calling  each  other
> all sorts of insulting names.
> 
> Since then I've often thought that this is a really good way to  mess
> up  such  discussions,  and  we  should all be trying it whenever the
> topic comes up.  ;-)
> 
> 
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------
>   _'
>   O
> <:#/>  John Chambers
>   +   <jc at trillian.mit.edu>
>  /#\  <jc1742 at gmail.com>
>  | |
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:55:41 -0800
> From: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> To: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <d18aea68-cf8c-f0a3-e2f2-365e60065e72 at borg.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
>> On 11/22/21 10:36 AM, jc at trillian.mit.edu wrote:
>> Some time back, I saw  a  fun  discussion  started  with  one  person
>> arguing  for  year-round  EDT in New Enland, followed by someone else
>> suggesting that instead, New England should switch to AST.   The  fun
>> part was the quick realization that a lot of people didn't understand
>> the difference, and got into rather nasty fights calling  each  other
>> all sorts of insulting names.
>> 
>> Since then I've often thought that this is a really good way to  mess
>> up  such  discussions,  and  we  should all be trying it whenever the
>> topic comes up.  ;-)
> 
> I love it! Ask those year-arounders whether they want EDT or AST, and 
> then argue for the opposite.
> 
> 
> Time is real simple. And very useful for predicting and scheduling and 
> synchronizing stuff.
> 
> The very useful aspects mean we layer lots extra important stuff on top
> of it: where the sun will be in the sky, seasons, birthdays, religious 
> holidays (haven't wars been fought over when is Easter?), precise 
> durations, predictable decompositions, etc. And let's also change our 
> clocks twice a year, in most but not all places, and let's do it on 
> dates which are not consistent from one participating place to place nor 
> from year to year. Also allow local officials to change timezone for 
> arbitrary reasons, changing their minds form time to time, including 
> fractional timezones!
> 
> Which means time is no longer simple. But multi-year mortgage and bond 
> calculations still need to be correct.
> 
> At first glance time still looks simple, and that's when people start 
> writing bugs.
> 
> When I was born the second was defined as a specific fraction of a day, 
> which meant the length of a second was variable depending on what the 
> earth was up to. When I was a little kid the second was redefined to be 
> of a fixed length, and it was the *day* that became of variable length; 
> the second was heretofore defined as rock-solid.
> 
> Nope. Youngsters know time is simple and still write code that assumes 
> things are today as they were when I was born: a second is a fixed 
> fraction of a day.
> 
> So because programmers think time is simple, we have a fairly new 
> (fuzzy) Google definition of the second. Mostly it is dang precise and
> stable, but every year or so, it starts to slew wildly away from its 
> usual precise duration and then slew wildly back, all to avoid leap 
> seconds that would trigger bugs where programmers thought they knew that 
> a minute would always have 60-seconds. (Silly of them.)
> 
> I say fuzzy because I am pretty sure how and when the slewing happens is 
> not well defined, is probably not consistent from one leap second to the 
> next. And this odd time standard is distributed via NTP, which was not 
> intended to distribute a non-stable reference, so the result is going to 
> be a mess from any time-standardization perspective. But at least it 
> won't trigger any brand new 60-second-per-minute bugs.
> 
> And god help any programs that crazily assume a second is of fixed 
> length, but then get hooked up to Google time.
> 
> Time is complicated.
> 
> -kb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:00:54 -0500
> From: John Abreau <abreauj at gmail.com>
> To: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> Cc: BLU Discuss <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID:
>    <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:
> [....]
> 
>> (When people post that such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on
>> July-something-th, I always try
>> to resist the pedantic urge to correct.)
> 
> [....]
> 
> Correct what? In July we're using EDT, so 4PM EDT in July is correct
> already.
> 
> I gotta say, I didn't expect my original post to open up such a hornet's
> nest. All I was trying to say is (1) complaining about DST in an
> announcement for a professional seminar that has nothing to do with
> timezones seems unprofessional; (2) making up yet another way to refer to
> timezones (EPT) is counterproductive and only adds to the existing
> confusion; and (3) using something like "US/Eastern" instead of "EST" and
> "EDT" unambiguously conveys the correct information without the need to
> think about DST.
> 
> 
> -- 
> John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
> Email: abreauj at gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
> PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:11:38 -0500
> From: Eric Chadbourne <eric.chadbourne at icloud.com>
> To: BLU <discuss at blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
>    not for    the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <3F3DB8C8-21ED-42E0-A946-BE3254FCF4D1 at icloud.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=utf-8
> 
> At about the Unix epoch a wise band once asked, does anybody really know what rime it is?  https://youtu.be/ekGWkL0Jh-4
> 
> Eric 
> 
> Chadbourne.Consulting
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2021, at 6:02 PM, John Abreau <abreauj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:
>> [....]
>> 
>>> (When people post that such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on
>>> July-something-th, I always try
>>> to resist the pedantic urge to correct.)
>> 
>> [....]
>> 
>> Correct what? In July we're using EDT, so 4PM EDT in July is correct
>> already.
>> 
>> I gotta say, I didn't expect my original post to open up such a hornet's
>> nest. All I was trying to say is (1) complaining about DST in an
>> announcement for a professional seminar that has nothing to do with
>> timezones seems unprofessional; (2) making up yet another way to refer to
>> timezones (EPT) is counterproductive and only adds to the existing
>> confusion; and (3) using something like "US/Eastern" instead of "EST" and
>> "EDT" unambiguously conveys the correct information without the need to
>> think about DST.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
>> Email: abreauj at gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
>> PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss at lists.blu.org
>> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Discuss Digest, Vol 126, Issue 8
> ***************************************

From richard.pieri at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 10:30:37 2021
From: richard.pieri at gmail.com (Rich Pieri)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:30:37 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST
In-Reply-To: <6B3AFC6D-833E-4C37-9530-1331EF765E45@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.33425.1637622727.7345.discuss@lists.blu.org>
 <6B3AFC6D-833E-4C37-9530-1331EF765E45@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20211123103037.16632330.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:27:28 -0500
Stuart Conner <genuineaudio at gmail.com> wrote:

> While I greatly admire Ben Franklin, I have to concede daylight time
> isn?t much use to modern society. It was invented for farmers, who

It wasn't any use to Franklin, either. He wrote it as a satirical joke
about "saving candles". It was the numbskulls who took it seriously that
should be blamed, not Franklin.

-- 
\m/ (--) \m/

From lconrad at laymusic.org  Tue Nov 23 11:26:05 2021
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:26:05 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST
In-Reply-To: <6B3AFC6D-833E-4C37-9530-1331EF765E45@gmail.com> (Stuart Conner's
 message of "Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:27:28 -0500")
References: <mailman.33425.1637622727.7345.discuss@lists.blu.org>
 <6B3AFC6D-833E-4C37-9530-1331EF765E45@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87sfvm96ua.fsf@laymusic.org>

>>>>> "Stuart" == Stuart Conner <genuineaudio at gmail.com> writes:

    Stuart> Having said that, UTC does make sense for computers and internet
    Stuart> coordination, but I?m personally not ready for one world time (and
    Stuart> government to follow).

I can imagine world government leading to world time, but I don't see
why the reverse should happen.

-- 
Laura   (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org)
(617) 661-8097	233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139   
<http://www.laymusic.org/> <http://www.serpentpublications.org>

I?ve developed a great reputation for wisdom by ordering more books
than I ever had time to read, and reading more books, by far, than I
learned anything useful from, except, of course, that some very
tedious gentlemen have written books. This is not a new insight, but
the truth of it is something you have to experience to fully grasp.

Marilynne Robinson, Gilead


From grg-webvisible+blu at ai.mit.edu  Tue Nov 23 11:29:16 2021
From: grg-webvisible+blu at ai.mit.edu (grg)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:29:16 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 02:55:41 PM -0500, Kent Borg wrote:
> Nope. Youngsters know time is simple and still write code that assumes 
> things are today as they were when I was born: a second is a fixed 
> fraction of a day.
...
> Time is complicated.

I couldn't agree more that time is complicated, but I don't agree that it's
a matter of youthful or, shall we say, substantially experienced
programmers.  at any age, imho the only way to really appreciate the inane
and esoteric vagaries of time is to either implement a time library or
build an application where time critically matters, such as synchronizing
worldwide communications or scheduling global airline flights.

do either of those and you realize that everything about time, without
exception, is just a construct of people and the agreement between them
(spelled "politics", but in the broad sense).  we sciency/engineeringish
types think time is an absolute, scientific reality -- a second is exactly
a second in any reference frame you're in, right?  even if that were true
(it's not), *everything* we ever say or compute about time is just an
arbitrary human fabrication.

across the globe, people don't agree on how long a year is, how long a day
is, how long a second is (forget about "month!"), when a day/year/etc
starts and ends, whether we use the sun, the moon, stars, atoms, or some
combination of those as a reference (all of which we tweak as it pleases
us).  not to mention the most obvious, its variation by location - where
the subject of the current argument (EST/EDT/AST/ADT/EPT...) is based not
only on capricious applications of geographic and governmental boundaries,
but even the fact that they're 1 hour apart is the product of someone's
whimsy (and more whimsy means they're not even all 1 hour apart).  tzone
varies by dictum, years vary by decree, seconds vary by convention, and it
all changes whenever a random neuron fires in someone with the ability to
get other people to follow that neuron.  (which means that rationalizing
the past is yet an additional layer of annoyance...)

and we're supposed to teach computers to deal with this garbage??  what a
colossal waste of time (measured in which standard? ;) - even if necessary
if we want computers to interact with these inconsistent and mercurial
humans.  (do I sound bitter about this? ;)

everything about time is arbitrary and it changes all the time.  forgive me
if I can't get worked up about a 1-hr shift every half revolution or so.


> (fuzzy) Google definition of the second. Mostly it is dang precise and 
> stable, but every year or so, it starts to slew wildly away from its 
> usual precise duration and then slew wildly back
...
> I say fuzzy because I am pretty sure how and when the slewing happens is 
> not well defined, is probably not consistent from one leap second to the 
> next. And this odd time standard is distributed via NTP, which was not 
> intended to distribute a non-stable reference, so the result is going to 
> be a mess from any time-standardization perspective.

fwiw, I think google's proposal is well defined & documented, and they make
a reasonable argument that the change is well within ntp and commodity
system clock tolerances ("11.6?ppm...within the manufacturing and thermal
errors of most machines' quartz oscillators, and well under NTP's 500 ppm
maximum slew rate"):
	https://developers.google.com/time/smear

and don't blame google only, there were plenty of other made-up versions of
this before google said "hey, let's all hack this smear thing the same way"
(to which everyone else said "forget you, I thought of a different hack so
whatever I made up is obviously superior").

ok, so I guess I do get worked up about this stuff, just not about the dst
part of it specifically. ;)

--grg

From bobleigh at twomeeps.com  Tue Nov 23 13:33:15 2021
From: bobleigh at twomeeps.com (Bob Leigh)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:33:15 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKbQ-o6FQ-7aZEVkGP-1vcbZASMVYa8QQyEW0nZapd3td2i9Hw@mail.gmail.com>

One more comment related to "morning people":

I own a pair of calligraphy buttons:

Who the hell let the morning people run everything?

They were unanimously elected at a 7 a.m. meeting.

--
Bob      bobleigh at twomeeps.com



On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 11:29 AM grg <grg-webvisible+blu at ai.mit.edu> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 02:55:41 PM -0500, Kent Borg wrote:
> > Nope. Youngsters know time is simple and still write code that assumes
> > things are today as they were when I was born: a second is a fixed
> > fraction of a day.
> ...
> > Time is complicated.
>
> I couldn't agree more that time is complicated, but I don't agree that it's
> a matter of youthful or, shall we say, substantially experienced
> programmers.  at any age, imho the only way to really appreciate the inane
> and esoteric vagaries of time is to either implement a time library or
> build an application where time critically matters, such as synchronizing
> worldwide communications or scheduling global airline flights.
>
> do either of those and you realize that everything about time, without
> exception, is just a construct of people and the agreement between them
> (spelled "politics", but in the broad sense).  we sciency/engineeringish
> types think time is an absolute, scientific reality -- a second is exactly
> a second in any reference frame you're in, right?  even if that were true
> (it's not), *everything* we ever say or compute about time is just an
> arbitrary human fabrication.
>
> across the globe, people don't agree on how long a year is, how long a day
> is, how long a second is (forget about "month!"), when a day/year/etc
> starts and ends, whether we use the sun, the moon, stars, atoms, or some
> combination of those as a reference (all of which we tweak as it pleases
> us).  not to mention the most obvious, its variation by location - where
> the subject of the current argument (EST/EDT/AST/ADT/EPT...) is based not
> only on capricious applications of geographic and governmental boundaries,
> but even the fact that they're 1 hour apart is the product of someone's
> whimsy (and more whimsy means they're not even all 1 hour apart).  tzone
> varies by dictum, years vary by decree, seconds vary by convention, and it
> all changes whenever a random neuron fires in someone with the ability to
> get other people to follow that neuron.  (which means that rationalizing
> the past is yet an additional layer of annoyance...)
>
> and we're supposed to teach computers to deal with this garbage??  what a
> colossal waste of time (measured in which standard? ;) - even if necessary
> if we want computers to interact with these inconsistent and mercurial
> humans.  (do I sound bitter about this? ;)
>
> everything about time is arbitrary and it changes all the time.  forgive me
> if I can't get worked up about a 1-hr shift every half revolution or so.
>
>
> > (fuzzy) Google definition of the second. Mostly it is dang precise and
> > stable, but every year or so, it starts to slew wildly away from its
> > usual precise duration and then slew wildly back
> ...
> > I say fuzzy because I am pretty sure how and when the slewing happens is
> > not well defined, is probably not consistent from one leap second to the
> > next. And this odd time standard is distributed via NTP, which was not
> > intended to distribute a non-stable reference, so the result is going to
> > be a mess from any time-standardization perspective.
>
> fwiw, I think google's proposal is well defined & documented, and they make
> a reasonable argument that the change is well within ntp and commodity
> system clock tolerances ("11.6?ppm...within the manufacturing and thermal
> errors of most machines' quartz oscillators, and well under NTP's 500 ppm
> maximum slew rate"):
>         https://developers.google.com/time/smear
>
> and don't blame google only, there were plenty of other made-up versions of
> this before google said "hey, let's all hack this smear thing the same way"
> (to which everyone else said "forget you, I thought of a different hack so
> whatever I made up is obviously superior").
>
> ok, so I guess I do get worked up about this stuff, just not about the dst
> part of it specifically. ;)
>
> --grg
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From richard.pieri at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 14:00:32 2021
From: richard.pieri at gmail.com (Rich Pieri)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:00:32 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAKbQ-o6FQ-7aZEVkGP-1vcbZASMVYa8QQyEW0nZapd3td2i9Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
 <CAKbQ-o6FQ-7aZEVkGP-1vcbZASMVYa8QQyEW0nZapd3td2i9Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20211123140032.739a7754.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:33:15 -0500
Bob Leigh <bobleigh at twomeeps.com> wrote:

> One more comment related to "morning people":
> 
> I own a pair of calligraphy buttons:
> 
> Who the hell let the morning people run everything?
> 
> They were unanimously elected at a 7 a.m. meeting.

You snooze, you looze. :)

-- 
\m/ (--) \m/

From mark at buttery.org  Tue Nov 23 15:28:48 2021
From: mark at buttery.org (=?UTF-8?B?U2hpcmxleSBNw6FycXVleiBEw7psY2V5?=)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:28:48 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211123140032.739a7754.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
 <CAKbQ-o6FQ-7aZEVkGP-1vcbZASMVYa8QQyEW0nZapd3td2i9Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123140032.739a7754.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMdng5vBCEHDKfwbC3L=D7t_-LDZB5JW2ZWcOAetMP6yREeuOQ@mail.gmail.com>

People say that the early bird catches the worm. But nobody ever talks
about the fate of the early worm...

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 2:01 PM Rich Pieri <richard.pieri at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:33:15 -0500
> Bob Leigh <bobleigh at twomeeps.com> wrote:
>
> > One more comment related to "morning people":
> >
> > I own a pair of calligraphy buttons:
> >
> > Who the hell let the morning people run everything?
> >
> > They were unanimously elected at a 7 a.m. meeting.
>
> You snooze, you looze. :)
>
> --
> \m/ (--) \m/
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

From nobluspam5476 at penguinmail.com  Tue Nov 23 15:44:39 2021
From: nobluspam5476 at penguinmail.com (R. Luoma)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:44:39 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] The Early Worm Gets the Bird (from the big bad Beowulf
	thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAMdng5vBCEHDKfwbC3L=D7t_-LDZB5JW2ZWcOAetMP6yREeuOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
 <CAKbQ-o6FQ-7aZEVkGP-1vcbZASMVYa8QQyEW0nZapd3td2i9Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123140032.739a7754.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <CAMdng5vBCEHDKfwbC3L=D7t_-LDZB5JW2ZWcOAetMP6yREeuOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20211123154439.ad00c321610e8821323a6ff1@penguinmail.com>

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:28:48 -0500
Shirley M?rquez D?lcey <mark at buttery.org> wrote:

> People say that the early bird catches the worm. But nobody ever talks
> about the fate of the early worm...

not quite true:

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Early_Worm_Gets_the_Bird

The Early Worm Gets the Bird is a 1940 Warner Bros. Merrie Melodies cartoon supervised by Tex Avery.[1] The short was released on January 13, 1940.

From invalid at pizzashack.org  Tue Nov 23 16:37:53 2021
From: invalid at pizzashack.org (Derek Martin)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:37:53 -0600
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211122102546.C644DFCC@m0117459.ppops.net>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
Message-ID: <20211123213753.GE15901@bladeshadow.org>

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 08:04:47AM -0800, Kent Borg wrote:
> On 11/22/21 7:15 AM, Rich Pieri wrote:
> > So yeah, abolishing DST isn't just a silly windmill tilting exercise,
> > IMO.
> 
> My gripe with the abolitionists is that our ranks are infiltrated with a
> fifth-column: people aren't trying to abolish DST, they are trying to make
> DST permanent, year around.
 
I don't think that's normal for most of the world, I think it's mostly
just in the New England states.  So long as the business world insists
on keeping fixed hours, we're probably in the wrong time zone.  Having
sunset at 4:30pm is pretty awful in relation to that.  But then
again...

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 10:25:46AM -0800, Jim Gasek wrote:
> Abolish it, the changing of clocks.  Unnecessary.  I don't care
> which one people choose.  Who even says "8am" is a start time?  Or
> 5pm an end time?

Then there's this.  I do actually favor abolishing time zones
entirely.  Just use GMT everywhere.  Thanks to the pandemic, many
businesses which already had 24x7 operations are getting used to the
idea that their employees don't necessarily need to work a fixed
schedule to be productive.  Time is arbitrary, even if the passage of
it is not.  I work roughly 15:00 - 23:00 with a fair amount of
variance, regardless of what the Sun is doing to the Earth's surface.
Probably can't happen, at least in America.  We couldn't even get
people to switch to SI measurement units...

-- 
Derek D. Martin    http://www.pizzashack.org/   GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02
-=-=-=-=-
This message is posted from an invalid address.  Replying to it will result in
undeliverable mail due to spam prevention.  Sorry for the inconvenience.


From jabr at blu.org  Tue Nov 23 17:12:48 2021
From: jabr at blu.org (John Abreau)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:12:48 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] The Early Worm Gets the Bird (from the big bad
	Beowulf thread)
In-Reply-To: <20211123154439.ad00c321610e8821323a6ff1@penguinmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
 <CAKbQ-o6FQ-7aZEVkGP-1vcbZASMVYa8QQyEW0nZapd3td2i9Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123140032.739a7754.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <CAMdng5vBCEHDKfwbC3L=D7t_-LDZB5JW2ZWcOAetMP6yREeuOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123154439.ad00c321610e8821323a6ff1@penguinmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+h9Qs7b6AXcwpj-j48d=gwGjFG4XgnFp0Xw5iaU4h3dAX+E3g@mail.gmail.com>

It can be found on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llq5Y40xm_4



On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:45 PM R. Luoma <nobluspam5476 at penguinmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:28:48 -0500
> Shirley M?rquez D?lcey <mark at buttery.org> wrote:
>
> > People say that the early bird catches the worm. But nobody ever talks
> > about the fate of the early worm...
>
> not quite true:
>
> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Early_Worm_Gets_the_Bird
>
> The Early Worm Gets the Bird is a 1940 Warner Bros. Merrie Melodies
> cartoon supervised by Tex Avery.[1] The short was released on January 13,
> 1940.
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>


-- 
John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
Email jabr at blu.org / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6

From kentborg at borg.org  Tue Nov 23 18:51:36 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:51:36 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <CAMdng5vBCEHDKfwbC3L=D7t_-LDZB5JW2ZWcOAetMP6yREeuOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
 <CAKbQ-o6FQ-7aZEVkGP-1vcbZASMVYa8QQyEW0nZapd3td2i9Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123140032.739a7754.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <CAMdng5vBCEHDKfwbC3L=D7t_-LDZB5JW2ZWcOAetMP6yREeuOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70f49ac5-7a09-71cd-e7f1-4c0bf844d040@borg.org>

On 11/23/21 12:28 PM, Shirley M?rquez D?lcey wrote:
> People say that the early bird catches the worm. But nobody ever talks
> about the fate of the early worm...

I figure those who catch all those early worms are worm eaters.

-kb



From richb at pioneer.ci.net  Tue Nov 23 18:58:41 2021
From: richb at pioneer.ci.net (Rich Braun)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:58:41 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Floating Daylight Re: Abolish DST
Message-ID: <86c5d13d.AVkAABRnYbkAAAAAAAAAALFJrN0AAAAHywsAAAAAAAAUQQBhnYA1@mailjet.com>

I?d be happiest if it were still light out at 9pm year-round. With ntp-based clocks, we could have them automatically adjust by an hour at a time several times each year (depending on latitude) so sunrise floats between 5am and noon. Just need a perl script to make it so.

Support FDT!

-rich


From me at mattgillen.net  Tue Nov 23 22:49:20 2021
From: me at mattgillen.net (Matthew Gillen)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:49:20 -0500
Subject: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for
 the lily-livered)
In-Reply-To: <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
References: <CAAbKA3X8_G0Ku4Gh9uqMM3Uya2KxxKkwUg-NmT49L5U0ER9X-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637542619062.7856@mit.edu>
 <CAAbKA3VD_621=YhCK-VAqT8d+_NyChtu_ZnRPpnv-BkP05ReqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1637545901738.21232@mit.edu>
 <CA+h9Qs4_5CG977NtxF=C+EDahkGtAx6cSdOmc-Qxseons5gRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211122101515.3c892316.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <9c13d55b-c545-59e8-4cf1-8b1774fc5046@borg.org>
 <20211122114001.4c4d7a17.Richard.Pieri@gmail.com>
 <b0d670b6-cb1e-e08f-ec7e-cc4db93d7ecd@borg.org>
 <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20211123162916.GD4299@csail.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3569b047-f812-ef83-18f0-530ad8b7092f@mattgillen.net>

On 11/23/2021 11:29 AM, grg wrote:
> and we're supposed to teach computers to deal with this garbage??  what a
> colossal waste of time (measured in which standard?;)  - even if necessary
> if we want computers to interact with these inconsistent and mercurial
> humans.  (do I sound bitter about this?;)
> 
> everything about time is arbitrary and it changes all the time.  forgive me
> if I can't get worked up about a 1-hr shift every half revolution or so.

Amen.

What's a bit ironic about this is that our human-invented system is so 
complicated we now need computers to help us keep track.  Tucson, AZ 
doesn't recognize DST, and naturally my company has an office there.  If 
the calendaring application didn't know all our stupid human rules (that 
satisfy some trite political purpose) and do the conversion for me, I 
don't think I'd ever have a scheduled meeting with them.

Of the hundreds of offices, this /one/ has extra special rules compared 
to all the others.  My brain doesn't have room for those kind of details.

It's a minor annoyance how often my machines need to update the tzdata 
package (how often can this change really???), but I suppose I should be 
thankful that every time it updates, that's one less dumb exception or 
change I have to have conscious knowledge about.

I sleep well at night knowing real computers store their time in UTC, 
and only care about tzdata for display purposes.

Matt

From kkeville at mit.edu  Wed Nov 24 09:34:09 2021
From: kkeville at mit.edu (Kurt L Keville)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:34:09 +0000
Subject: [Discuss] HPC Meetup next week
Message-ID: <1637764449440.62082@mit.edu>

at https://www.meetup.com/HPC-GPU-Supercomputing-Group-of-Boston/events/281573454/?


Catch up on all things HPC, HTPC, and GPU...

From kentborg at borg.org  Sun Nov 28 13:28:49 2021
From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:28:49 -0800
Subject: [Discuss] Floating Daylight Re: Abolish DST
In-Reply-To: <86c5d13d.AVkAABRnYbkAAAAAAAAAALFJrN0AAAAHywsAAAAAAAAUQQBhnYA1@mailjet.com>
References: <86c5d13d.AVkAABRnYbkAAAAAAAAAALFJrN0AAAAHywsAAAAAAAAUQQBhnYA1@mailjet.com>
Message-ID: <56189001-7f14-32ca-924f-75194aae13dc@borg.org>

On 11/23/21 3:58 PM, Rich Braun wrote:
> I?d be happiest if it were still light out at 9pm year-round. With ntp-based clocks, we could have them automatically adjust by an hour at a time several times each year (depending on latitude) so sunrise floats between 5am and noon. Just need a perl script to make it so.
>
> Support FDT!

Whomever it is who maintains the tz will kill you.

-kb