[Discuss] Abolish DST
Stuart Conner
genuineaudio at gmail.com
Tue Nov 23 00:27:28 EST 2021
While I greatly admire Ben Franklin, I have to concede daylight time isn’t much use to modern society. It was invented for farmers, who get up with the light, or before, to not feel like it’s an ungodly hour on the clock.
In middle and higher latitudes sunrise and sunset shift by more than an hour from solstice to solstice, (5-ish for New England)so it really doesn’t do much. After it got extended to 8 months of the year instead of 6, it makes even less sense.
Having said that, UTC does make sense for computers and internet coordination, but I’m personally not ready for one world time (and government to follow).
Stu
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> On Nov 22, 2021, at 6:15 PM, discuss-request at lists.blu.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (Kent Borg)
> 2. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (Jim Gasek)
> 3. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (Jerry Feldman)
> 4. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (Kent Borg)
> 5. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (Rich Pieri)
> 6. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (jc at trillian.mit.edu)
> 7. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (Kent Borg)
> 8. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (John Abreau)
> 9. Re: Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is not for the
> lily-livered) (Eric Chadbourne)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:14:41 -0800
> From: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> To: Laura Conrad <lconrad at laymusic.org>
> Cc: BLU Discuss <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <c7ece581-41dc-7516-630c-349c5f61b33e at borg.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>> On 11/22/21 10:11 AM, Laura Conrad wrote:
>> Actually, I like the idea of abolishing all timezones and having time be
>> UTC everywhere, with the times for starting school or work picked to be
>> reasonable for the location.
>
> Nice.
>
> Years ago I had a two-timezone watch. I kept one on UTC.
>
> -kb
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:25:46 -0800
> From: "Jim Gasek" <jim at gasek.net>
> To: "Kent Borg" <kentborg at borg.org>
> Cc: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <20211122102546.C644DFCC at m0117459.ppops.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Abolish it, the changing of clocks.
> Unnecessary.
> I don't care which one people choose.
> Who even says "8am" is a start time?
> Or 5pm an end time?
>
> I have always believed these kinds of stupid LAWS are a result of
> politicians which will do ANYTHING to divert attention away from
> their infinite incompetence, or criminal activities.
>
> Especially dumb things like so-called "daylight savings",
> which SAVES NOTHING. Only causes unnecessary complexity.
> Daylight isn't saved, just moved around.
>
> It should be called "daylight moving".
>
> Hold politicians accountable.
> Make them call stuff what it really is.
>
> Stop asking government to do things for us. Anything.
> They will gladly latch onto our stupid suggestions, rather than
> do their jobs, do the needful.
>
> Keep government small and efficient.
>
> Politicians love bait and switch, shiny objects which divert
> attention away from important items, and onto unimportant ones.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim Gasek
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:25:37 -0500
> From: Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
> Cc: BLU Discuss <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID:
> <CAEvgogGSQnaGabZVQrWyxhEDx=zD=dZhnXnbyez+1iK_HCY9OA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Those of us who were in the military, especially aviation always used Zulu,
> or UTC. we also used Jack Benny for radio frequencies.
>
> --
> Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
> Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
> PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
> PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1 3050 5715 B88D 6F6
> B B6E7
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 1:11 PM Laura Conrad <lconrad at laymusic.org> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> "Kent" == Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> writes:
>>
>> Kent> On 11/22/21 8:12 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
>>>> Sundial clocks are the answer.
>>
>> Kent> I like them. But still have to pick what to calibrate to.
>>
>> Kent> I have mused with the idea of Somerville Solar Time, referenced
>> to the
>> Kent> Prospect Hill Meridian! Get hip businesses to hang clocks synced
>> to
>> Kent> Somerville Solar Time. It has a nice retro yet computerized
>> quality.
>>
>> Actually, I like the idea of abolishing all timezones and having time be
>> UTC everywhere, with the times for starting school or work picked to be
>> reasonable for the location.
>>
>> --
>> Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org)
>> (617) 661-8097 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
>> <http://www.laymusic.org/> <http://www.serpentpublications.org>
>>
>> At dawn, the magpie sings, and by day the black cockatoo wing their
>> way across a sunny sky. The koala, possum, dingo and carpet snake are
>> silent on the land below. A mist covers the mountains. We and our
>> land are crying for you.
>>
>> Eve Fesl, Matriarch of the Gubbi Gubbi tribe, eulogizing Steve Irwin
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:32:13 -0800
> From: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> To: jim at gasek.net
> Cc: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <e3191424-c1c3-0285-a169-e2e04d12d6b8 at borg.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>> On 11/22/21 10:25 AM, Jim Gasek wrote:
>> politicians which will do ANYTHING to divert attention away from
>
> I heard that it was commercial lobbies. Such as golf (I guess it used to
> be a bigger industry), they wanted people to get off work in time to
> play a few holes.
>
> Also, retailers wanted it, thinking people would be out shopping more if
> they got off work an hour early.
>
> Farmers hated it.
>
> -kb, the Kent who is also old enough to remember the early water
> fluoridation wars.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:33:58 -0500
> From: Rich Pieri <richard.pieri at gmail.com>
> To: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <20211122133358.0565d755.Richard.Pieri at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:08:28 -0500
> Shirley M?rquez D?lcey <mark at buttery.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm with Kent on this one. I hate the conspiracy of the morning
>> people.
>
> Funny thing is? I'm very much *not* a morning person and I still want
> the east cost to standardize on AST year-round.
>
> So again, please stop being insulting. It's not necessary nor
> appreciated.
>
> --
> \m/ (--) \m/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:36:58 +0000
> From: <jc at trillian.mit.edu>
> To: <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <20211022183658.43669.jc at trillian.mit.edu>
>
> | John Abreau <jabr at blu.org> wrote:
> |
> | > I look at Daylight Savings as a bizarre custom, one of a multitude of
> | > similar customs, that can be mildly annoying but is trivially easy to
> | > cope with, Heated efforts to repeal Daylight Savings strike me as
> | > being about as silly and pointless as trying to outlaw Santa Claus
> | > and the Tooth Fairy. Just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying for.
>
> Some time back, I saw a fun discussion started with one person
> arguing for year-round EDT in New Enland, followed by someone else
> suggesting that instead, New England should switch to AST. The fun
> part was the quick realization that a lot of people didn't understand
> the difference, and got into rather nasty fights calling each other
> all sorts of insulting names.
>
> Since then I've often thought that this is a really good way to mess
> up such discussions, and we should all be trying it whenever the
> topic comes up. ;-)
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------
> _'
> O
> <:#/> John Chambers
> + <jc at trillian.mit.edu>
> /#\ <jc1742 at gmail.com>
> | |
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:55:41 -0800
> From: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> To: discuss at lists.blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <d18aea68-cf8c-f0a3-e2f2-365e60065e72 at borg.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>> On 11/22/21 10:36 AM, jc at trillian.mit.edu wrote:
>> Some time back, I saw a fun discussion started with one person
>> arguing for year-round EDT in New Enland, followed by someone else
>> suggesting that instead, New England should switch to AST. The fun
>> part was the quick realization that a lot of people didn't understand
>> the difference, and got into rather nasty fights calling each other
>> all sorts of insulting names.
>>
>> Since then I've often thought that this is a really good way to mess
>> up such discussions, and we should all be trying it whenever the
>> topic comes up. ;-)
>
> I love it! Ask those year-arounders whether they want EDT or AST, and
> then argue for the opposite.
>
>
> Time is real simple. And very useful for predicting and scheduling and
> synchronizing stuff.
>
> The very useful aspects mean we layer lots extra important stuff on top
> of it: where the sun will be in the sky, seasons, birthdays, religious
> holidays (haven't wars been fought over when is Easter?), precise
> durations, predictable decompositions, etc. And let's also change our
> clocks twice a year, in most but not all places, and let's do it on
> dates which are not consistent from one participating place to place nor
> from year to year. Also allow local officials to change timezone for
> arbitrary reasons, changing their minds form time to time, including
> fractional timezones!
>
> Which means time is no longer simple. But multi-year mortgage and bond
> calculations still need to be correct.
>
> At first glance time still looks simple, and that's when people start
> writing bugs.
>
> When I was born the second was defined as a specific fraction of a day,
> which meant the length of a second was variable depending on what the
> earth was up to. When I was a little kid the second was redefined to be
> of a fixed length, and it was the *day* that became of variable length;
> the second was heretofore defined as rock-solid.
>
> Nope. Youngsters know time is simple and still write code that assumes
> things are today as they were when I was born: a second is a fixed
> fraction of a day.
>
> So because programmers think time is simple, we have a fairly new
> (fuzzy) Google definition of the second. Mostly it is dang precise and
> stable, but every year or so, it starts to slew wildly away from its
> usual precise duration and then slew wildly back, all to avoid leap
> seconds that would trigger bugs where programmers thought they knew that
> a minute would always have 60-seconds. (Silly of them.)
>
> I say fuzzy because I am pretty sure how and when the slewing happens is
> not well defined, is probably not consistent from one leap second to the
> next. And this odd time standard is distributed via NTP, which was not
> intended to distribute a non-stable reference, so the result is going to
> be a mess from any time-standardization perspective. But at least it
> won't trigger any brand new 60-second-per-minute bugs.
>
> And god help any programs that crazily assume a second is of fixed
> length, but then get hooked up to Google time.
>
> Time is complicated.
>
> -kb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:00:54 -0500
> From: John Abreau <abreauj at gmail.com>
> To: Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org>
> Cc: BLU Discuss <discuss at lists.blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID:
> <CAFv2jcZ3XwiBnE7N3J3Xhsy5-yMX1pcDZxZEN6NvZkFStW0Zsg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:
> [....]
>
>> (When people post that such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on
>> July-something-th, I always try
>> to resist the pedantic urge to correct.)
>
> [....]
>
> Correct what? In July we're using EDT, so 4PM EDT in July is correct
> already.
>
> I gotta say, I didn't expect my original post to open up such a hornet's
> nest. All I was trying to say is (1) complaining about DST in an
> announcement for a professional seminar that has nothing to do with
> timezones seems unprofessional; (2) making up yet another way to refer to
> timezones (EPT) is counterproductive and only adds to the existing
> confusion; and (3) using something like "US/Eastern" instead of "EST" and
> "EDT" unambiguously conveys the correct information without the need to
> think about DST.
>
>
> --
> John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
> Email: abreauj at gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
> PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23 C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:11:38 -0500
> From: Eric Chadbourne <eric.chadbourne at icloud.com>
> To: BLU <discuss at blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Abolish DST (was This year's Beowulf Bash is
> not for the lily-livered)
> Message-ID: <3F3DB8C8-21ED-42E0-A946-BE3254FCF4D1 at icloud.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> At about the Unix epoch a wise band once asked, does anybody really know what rime it is? https://youtu.be/ekGWkL0Jh-4
>
> Eric
>
> Chadbourne.Consulting
>
>> On Nov 22, 2021, at 6:02 PM, John Abreau <abreauj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:52 PM Kent Borg <kentborg at borg.org> wrote:
>> [....]
>>
>>> (When people post that such-and-such will happen at 4PM EDT on
>>> July-something-th, I always try
>>> to resist the pedantic urge to correct.)
>>
>> [....]
>>
>> Correct what? In July we're using EDT, so 4PM EDT in July is correct
>> already.
>>
>> I gotta say, I didn't expect my original post to open up such a hornet's
>> nest. All I was trying to say is (1) complaining about DST in an
>> announcement for a professional seminar that has nothing to do with
>> timezones seems unprofessional; (2) making up yet another way to refer to
>> timezones (EPT) is counterproductive and only adds to the existing
>> confusion; and (3) using something like "US/Eastern" instead of "EST" and
>> "EDT" unambiguously conveys the correct information without the need to
>> think about DST.
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
>> Email: abreauj at gmail.com / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
>> PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23 C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Discuss at lists.blu.org
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