Re: Boy Scout Open Source

["Mark Richards-3" <user=151@nabble.blu.org>]

 Matt Shields wrote: 
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:38 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote: 

> 
> I think it's totally different.  There is nothing in Christianity that is 
> prejudice against any race of people.   
Unsubstantiated.  Inaccurate against the historical record.  Plus, the 
Christian bible is filled with plenty of prejudice against other races, 
acted out in war, rape, pillage, and destruction.  The term "chosen 
people" ring any bells? 


> What there are is prejudices against them because of what people do.  There are specifics about entire races that 
> are prejudiced against because of actions they have done as a nation, but 
> again, it's based on their actions.   
I strain, and still cannot get the point of this. 

> Also, don't confuse this with men doing things in the name of religion.  There have been plenty of men who have done 
> things in the name of religion that were totally wrong.   
I don't quite fathom the difference.  The argument suggests, 
incorrectly, that without religion good things are not done, which is a 
logical fallacy. 

> As another example on a smaller scale, look at the people who bomb abortion clinics in the name 
> of god.  Christianity doesn't condone abortion 
Assumes an argument to the contrary.  Also unsubstantiated. 

> but that doesn't mean bombing abortion clinics and killing people is right. 
Right to whom?  Eric Rudolph?  To the end of his trial Rudolph was 
completely unrepentant for setting off a bomb that killed a police 
officer and a seriously injured a nurse at a women's health clinic, plus 
other bombings.  Rudolph claimed that the state no longer protects the 
innocents.  Apparently he heard some voice who told him to take out a 
few other innocents for the cause.  Rudolph is a member of the 
"Christian Identity" movement, which brings together a number or wacko 
radicals.  He represents the worst of the crop, but take your pick from 
any of the others.  There's enough insanity to fill an ocean. 


... 


> 
> You call it hate, but as they see it they believe in a god that does not 
> condone other people's actions.   
Assumptive and unsubstantiated.  We also don't have direct knowledge of 
motive.  We do know that the Christian bible is filled with hateful, 
destructive, vindictive actions that were not only condoned but 
commanded by the god.  A sober reading will reveal nothing as to a 
connection between the basic moral tenets that we hold as human beings 
and the morality that religion allegedly brings.  I suspect that one of 
the rationalizations, perhaps one that someone as demented as Rudolph 
might make, is that a smaller wrong can be allowed when it leads to a 
greater good. 

Like Iraq. 

> If their belief in god is true, then what that god says is also true.  Now comes the debate of whether or not their is 
> a god. 
Beyond this, and it's not really worth debating, is the question of why 
not take the whole religion thing (what god says) as true and just run 
with it? 


> They believe in a god, they founded a "club", not you, they founded 
> it.  They want to see that people in that club are taught their beliefs. 
> It's no different than them going to their church.  Don't walk into their 
> church and tell them they are wrong, because they're going to bark right 
> back at you.  You're being excluded because you don't agree with them.  If 
> you walk into Microsoft, don't expect them to convert to Linux just because 
> you think you're right and they are wrong, and if they came to a Linux 
> meeting preaching about MS product I'm sure there would be a ton of 
> prejudice against them, right??? 
It would have been a good argument but the comparisons cannot quite 
stand on their own.  The religions are semi-public institutions (tax 
exempt status; woven into politics; historically connected to all manner 
of horrors over many centuries).  At some level one might claim a right 
to walk right on in and argue.  We subsidize their land and they get 
plenty of public/government hand outs.  Microsoft, on the other hand, is 
certainly an institution, but contrary to your claim of parallels, is a 
private corporation.  Our recourse is not to buy; not to support; and to 
reveal wherever possible Microsoft's many failings. 

If a Microsoft rep came to a Linux meeting, conducted themselves 
respectfully, and engaged in fair discourse, I suspect they would not be 
kicked out, excommunicated, refused the Linux Sacrement, told they're 
going to some imaginary place of punishment, bombed, shot at, or have a 
vial of blood thrown at them. 


> Whether a person chooses to be or is born gay is debatable, just like 
> whether or not there is a god.   
Unsubstantiated.  Not based on fact.  Really not debatable.  The biology 
of being gay is well substantiated.  It even has parallels to other 
mammals.  The possibility that there "is a god" has been soundly 
trounced.  Arguments to the contrary cannot stand up to the light of 
science and reason. 

> Again I think this is extremely off topic 
> and I think you're missing the point.  You're perpetuating a negative cycle 
> by being stubborn.  If they don't want a certain type of people involved in 
> their group, fine let them be.   

And now for the really bad news.  In BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA AND MONMOUTH 
COUNCIL, et al., PETITIONERS v. JAMES DALE US 99â??699, The Court ruled 
that the scouts first amendment right of "expression" overrides the 
scouts obligation to public accomodation (admitting members it deems 
inappropriate, even if these members conduct themselves in a manner 
consistent with the stated purpose of the group).  Note that the scouts 
often take advantage of public facilities for meetings.  Despite the 
fact that public property is used, they are allowed to discriminate 
based on someone's sexual preference. 

The court's ruling is just one example of how the institutionalization 
of religion into America's political and societal systems is well 
underway.  Humanity, decency, the truth of science, and doing what's 
best for stands a chance of not getting much of a fair shake when law is 
made by members of "the club". 

/m 




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