[Discuss] Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions

[genuineaudio at gmail.com (Stuart Conner)]

Don't be put off by arch. It is fantastic to always be up to date. If installation needs to be quicker, try antergos. 

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> On Dec 20, 2017, at 9:11 PM, discuss-request at blu.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions (David Kramer)
>   2. Re: php question. change directory to executing script.
>      (Betsy Schwartz)
>   3. Re: Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions (Steve Litt)
>   4. Tonight's meeting topic (David Kramer)
>   5. Re: Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions (Bill Horne)
>   6. Re: Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions (Steve Litt)
>   7. Re: Tonight's meeting topic (Jerry Feldman)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:08:27 -0500
> From: David Kramer <david at thekramers.net>
> To: discuss at blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions
> Message-ID: <be093066-4d6a-db0a-a6e3-e869619adbe7 at thekramers.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> I've been focusing mostly on Ubuntu because I want my skills to be with 
> something very popular that I'm likely to run into elsewhere.? Maybe I 
> should focus more on something for power users, as you say.
> 
> If I go with the Fedora KDE spin, that will bring me bleeding edge 
> software and also RPM package management which I'm more likely to see at 
> work (in RHEL/Centos).? I think I would be frustrated with Debian's 
> multi-year release cycle, and Arch and Gentoo seem like a LOT of work.? 
> This is my daily everything-but-gaming computer, and having it work is 
> also of value to me.
> 
> Any other distros I should consider?
> 
> Thanks. I was really seeing this as a Gnome vs KDE thing but you're 
> right, the problem may be partly with the distro.
> 
> 
>> On 12/20/2017 07:02 AM, Shirley M?rquez D?lcey wrote:
>> Ubuntu has been treating the non-LTS versions as betas for a while
>> now. Sounds like this one is no exception. I expect some of the rough
>> edges you saw (like the inability to run Synaptic as root) will be
>> smoothed out for 18.04. But the orientation toward non-power users
>> will remain because that's where Ubuntu has been targeted for a long
>> time, at least since the original introduction of Unity.
>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 3:55 AM, David Kramer <david at thekramers.net> wrote:
>>> My main Linux computer (tracer), was running an old version of Kubuntu,
>>> because I really didn't like what either Gnome or Unity became.  But that
>>> decision was years ago. My main objections to both were a removal of choice
>>> and control, and a move away from having multiple fixed desktop ( I usually
>>> have 4 distinct desktops for 4 different purposes and different apps running
>>> on them).  And the overall attitude of the project, which was a very clear
>>> dismissal of anyone who wanted to work differently than their vision.
>>> 
>>> When Ubuntu went back to Gnome/Wayland, I thought I would give it a try
>>> again.  I planned on reformatting and installing from scratch anyway.  A
>>> personal goal was to be a big boy and separate out things that objectively
>>> don't meet my needs, from things that I was just not used to or didn't like
>>> subjectively, but could get used to.  This list is only about the former,
>>> because the rest is my problem.
>>> 
>>>  * There has been an increasing trend of shoving components into
>>>    distributions well before they are ready, "because clearly we need
>>>    them, and we can't wait for them to be perfected".  First one I
>>>    remember is pulseaudio. I know many in our group feel the same way
>>>    about systemd.  I feel Wayland might fall into this category.  It
>>>    appears to work well for the most part, but I ran into serious
>>>    problems, like applications like Synaptic can't run as root.  I
>>>    ended up switching to Xorg.
>>>  * There still seems to be the same "We know what's right" attitude and
>>>    a dismissal of any objections.  All of my googling found results
>>>    like "Just run this command before you launch apps like synaptic.
>>>    No official documentation, no response to the bug reports, and no
>>>    solutions that solve the problem so you don't have to run a command
>>>    before running the command each time.  Much of the other basic
>>>    functionality I was looking for required third party software and
>>>    GnomeTweaks.
>>>  * In KDE, all sorts of gadgets appeared on the panel, and more can be
>>>    added.  In particular, apps running in the background had indicators
>>>    in the panel to they can be brought up (eg: SimpleScreenRecorder,
>>>    Sococo, VPN, Mega, etc).  By default, you get nothing and like it.
>>>    You have to install gnome shell extensions to get some of them
>>>    showing up, and some never showed up.  I have to run Sococo from the
>>>    command line in my terminal, otherwise there's no way to exit the
>>>    application.
>>>  * Another related problem I had is suspend.  I set up a keyboard
>>>    shortcut for suspending my computer, which I do several times a
>>>    day.  Not only is there not an event to map to a keyboard shortcut,
>>>    but if you click on the power thing in the upper right corner,
>>>    there's no suspend option. You actually have to hold down the Alt
>>>    key while pulling down that menu then there will be a suspend
>>>    option.  Totally ridiculous gymnastics.  There is another Gnome
>>>    Shell Extension that will add a suspend button, but when I installed
>>>    that, clicking on the suspend button did nothing.  I eventually
>>>    found a setting to suspend when the power button was pressed once,
>>>    but that's ergonomically more difficult than a keyboard press for me.
>>>  * About those Gnome Shell Extensions... You have to install a back end
>>>    program, and then install a browser plugin in order to install them.
>>>    There is a perfectly fine package manager in Debian, and there are
>>>    several other popular ones that don't involve such nonsense.
>>>    Amazingly, they don't appear to be categorized at all.  There's
>>>    almost 100 pages of extensions and no categories or groups.  Yes
>>>    there's search, which helps if you know what's available
>>>  * Multiple desktops, as I mentioned, are much harder to set up, and
>>>    require extra software.  Desktops can only be arranged vertically in
>>>    one column, and there doesn't appear to be a way of going directly
>>>    to a desktop with a keystroke.   That's not a deal-breaker, that's
>>>    more into the "not what I'm used to" level.  However, with KDE, I
>>>    can bind specific apps to specific desktops and even specific
>>>    monitors.  When I start up, all my apps start where they belong.
>>>    That doesn't seem possible under Gnome.  And I run many apps at
>>>    startup, across the 4 desktops.
>>> 
>>> I'm not saying Ubuntu/Gnome/Wayland is bad. I'm saying it's less likely to
>>> appeal to power users who like things the way they like them, and use lots
>>> of applications at once.  And that I'm going to install the latest Kubuntu.
>>> While it was way better than years ago, I don't see Gnome moving in a
>>> direction that works for me anytime soon.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> Discuss at blu.org
>>> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss at blu.org
>> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:29:20 -0500
> From: Betsy Schwartz <betsys at gmail.com>
> To: Eric Chadbourne <sillystring at protonmail.com>
> Cc: BLU <discuss at blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] php question. change directory to executing
>    script.
> Message-ID:
>    <CAPN2fFLfgeih7DmaD_HaW3QiVW52LXDB-KyKADx1+i=+XPjA1Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> I would also, always spell out explicitly the full path of the files
> you want to delete.
> If they're files you are creating, you should be able to determine
> that information programatically.
> 
> If you make an assumption, there will be some edge condition you
> haven't thought of that will bite you.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Eric Chadbourne
> <sillystring at protonmail.com> wrote:
>> Excellent points Mike, particularly on symlinks.  I'll make it a variable as suggested.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Eric Chadbourne
>> 
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] php question. change directory to executing script.
>>> Local Time: December 19, 2017 10:52 AM
>>> UTC Time: December 19, 2017 3:52 PM
>>> From: smallm at sdf.org
>>> To: Eric Chadbourne <sillystring at protonmail.com>
>>> BLU <discuss at blu.org>
>>> 
>>> Eric Chadbourne sillystring at protonmail.com writes:
>>> 
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I have a little function that needs to delete some files. I don't
>>>> want it to delete them from the directory of my user, but in the
>>>> directory of the script.
>>>> For example from terminal:
>>>> cd $HOME
>>>> php /path/to/script/foo.php // will execute foo in home
>>>> But I want it to execute foo in /script.
>>>> So in the function I told it to change working directory to script path.
>>>> chdir(dirname(FILE));
>>>> Am I missing something or is this OK? Is it evil to do such a thing?
>>>> 
>>>> Could your script ever be a symlink? Seems to me I've seen this go wrong
>>>> or at least get confusing (yes, it seems not uncommon to want to run
>>>> things in the script's directory - each place I've worked at the last 20
>>>> years has done it, both under Linux and under Windows) when symlinks are
>>>> involved.
>>>> 
>>>> What about passing an argument with the directory to execute in. Then at
>>>> least you have outside control. It's kind of the moral equivalent of a
>>>> local (or really a function argument) vs. global variable, in the sense
>>>> that your script's directory is like a global in that it comes from the
>>>> surrounding environment and isn't stated explicitly vs. a command
>>>> argument which would be more like (and end up in) a local variable.
>>>> 
>>>> It it's clumsy to run that way you can always use an alias.
>>>> 
>>>> On the other hand if its your own thing make it as simple as works for
>>>> you. Maybe you don't care about symlinks, and it's small enough that
>>>> "global variables" are appropriate. I just recall at the Windows job
>>>> when the program got big new programmers were a bit puzzled about which
>>>> directory it ran in and where it found its configuration files. It was
>>>> yet another bit of annoying incidental knowledge to be passed on that
>>>> the "working directory" wasn't the normal working directory but the
>>>> program's directory, or subdirectories relative to that.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Small
>>>> smallm at sdf.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss at blu.org
>> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:20:49 -0500
> From: Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com>
> To: discuss at blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions
> Message-ID: <20171220162049.1c7dff32 at mydesk.domain.cxm>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:08:27 -0500
> David Kramer <david at thekramers.net> wrote:
> 
>> I've been focusing mostly on Ubuntu because I want my skills to be
>> with something very popular that I'm likely to run into elsewhere.
>> Maybe I should focus more on something for power users, as you say.
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Any other distros I should consider?
> 
> Void Linux (https://www.voidlinux.eu/). I've been using it nonstop, on
> a daily basis, for 2.5 years, and it's wonderful. I've used Mandrake,
> Mandriva, Ubuntu and Debian on a daily basis, and Void is the best
> yet. It's almost completely a-la-carte: No GUI unless you want GUI,
> choice of over 10 wm/de's.
> 
> Instead of that piece of vendor lock-in masquerading as an init
> system, Void uses a simple and understandable and easily useable init
> system called runit. No more systemd vendor lock-in. No more 200 line
> sysvinit init scripts. Life is good, life is easy.
> 
> Void has a very nice installer to make it easy, but Void is very at
> home with chroot installs, and there are directions to do just that.
> Void is the easiest and best distro, for somebody understanding Linux
> who doesn't want layer upon layer of junk to make it easier for those
> who don't understand Linux.
> 
> I kinda like it.
> 
>> 
>> Thanks. I was really seeing this as a Gnome vs KDE thing but you're 
>> right, the problem may be partly with the distro.
> 
> It's worse than that: Gnome vs KDE is a false choice: There are tens of
> wm/de's out there, and most of them are good,  all of them are more
> respectful of resources than Gnome or KDE (or that frankenstein Unity).
> Here are just a few I really like:
> 
> ULTRALIGHT:
> * ctwm
> * IceWM
> * Openbox
> * fvwm
> * jwm
> * i3
> 
> SEMILIGHT
> * LXDE
> 
> NOT LIGHT BUT NOT PIGS
> * xfce
> 
> Those are just the ones I KNOW to be good because I've used them. By
> reputation, I hear a lot of great things about Trinity, Enlightenment,
> mate, twm, fluxbox, blackbox, and all the tiling window managers like
> Awesome and Ratpoison.
> 
> For all of the above, if you add in via a convenient hotkey Suckless
> Tools' dmenu program, you get wild and crazy productivity, and your
> need for a panel/taskbar is greatly reduced. See
> http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/201406/201406.htm#use_faster_tools_dmenu
> 
> HTH,
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:29:06 -0500
> From: David Kramer <david at thekramers.net>
> To: discuss at blu.org
> Subject: [Discuss] Tonight's meeting topic
> Message-ID: <40c513b1-6f73-74b9-c97b-7c405f657dbd at thekramers.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> I could have sworn tonight's talk was going to be on Docker cluster 
> management, or something like that.? Now the website says "Preview of 
> Federico's presentation at Scale", which doesn't say anything about what 
> the topic is.
> 
> Can someone fill me in on what he's going to cover?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:34:20 -0500
> From: Bill Horne <bill at horne.net>
> To: BLU Discussion List <discuss at blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions
> Message-ID: <579f632a-d759-d21c-7e02-2358103e2550 at horne.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
>> On 12/20/2017 4:20 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:08:27 -0500
>> David Kramer <david at thekramers.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Any other distros I should consider?
>> Void Linux (https://www.voidlinux.eu/). I've been using it nonstop, on
>> a daily basis, for 2.5 years, and it's wonderful.
> 
> What are Void Linux's memory and processor demands? I'm assembling a 
> "gateway" for Amateur Packet Radio use, and I need a lightweight version 
> which is nonetheless capable of running AX.25. I have a Dell PC that has 
> 400 MB of RAM and a 2GHz processor, which should be adequate for a 
> router, but I need to know how much processor load and RAM I can shed 
> with this version.
> 
> TIA.
> 
> Bill Horne
> 
> -- 
> Bill Horne
> I'm looking for a job! All leads appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:42:45 -0500
> From: Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com>
> To: discuss at blu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Ubuntu 17.10 / Gnome first impressions
> Message-ID: <20171220164245.5c5a2876 at mydesk.domain.cxm>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:34:20 -0500
> Bill Horne <bill at horne.net> wrote:
> 
>>> On 12/20/2017 4:20 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:08:27 -0500
>>> David Kramer <david at thekramers.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Any other distros I should consider?  
>>> Void Linux (https://www.voidlinux.eu/). I've been using it nonstop,
>>> on a daily basis, for 2.5 years, and it's wonderful.  
>> 
>> What are Void Linux's memory and processor demands? I'm assembling a 
>> "gateway" for Amateur Packet Radio use, and I need a lightweight
>> version which is nonetheless capable of running AX.25. I have a Dell
>> PC that has 400 MB of RAM and a 2GHz processor, which should be
>> adequate for a router, but I need to know how much processor load and
>> RAM I can shed with this version.
> 
> The answer to your question depends on what you're going to be running.
> I have no idea what AX.25 is. Your 2GHz processor is more than enough:
> I have Void running on processors less than half that speed.
> 
> I've gotten Void with X and Openbox running on 250mhz, but maaaan,
> you'd better use a lightweight browser and only open one or two windows
> at a time. You can tell you're sucking fumes.
> 
> If you don't need X, I think 400MB of RAM is plenty unless your
> software malloc's a heck of a lot.
> 
> There's one more thing I didn't talk about. Void is also available with
> the musl standard library instead of the glibc or whatever it's called
> these days, and from what I understand musl is much more conservative
> of RAM. That said, I've never used the musl variety. Anyway, if you
> don't need X, I think 400MB should be plenty.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 21:11:53 -0500
> From: Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
> Cc: Boston Linux and Unix <discuss at blu.org>
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Tonight's meeting topic
> Message-ID:
>    <CAEvgogEjKJMpwc1LmHoC0im_u10Y6euYNjktDy+jH6g71zUDjA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Federico talked about getting time without being on the internet, such as
> GPS modules, and ways of getting this in to a data center.
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 4:29 PM, David Kramer <david at thekramers.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I could have sworn tonight's talk was going to be on Docker cluster
>> management, or something like that.  Now the website says "Preview of
>> Federico's presentation at Scale", which doesn't say anything about what
>> the topic is.
>> 
>> Can someone fill me in on what he's going to cover?
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss at blu.org
>> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> Jerry Feldman <gaf.linux at gmail.com>
> Boston Linux and Unix
> PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
> Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6B B6E7
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> ------------------------------
> 
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