[Discuss] Community out-reach... convert the masses?

[invalid at pizzashack.org (Derek Martin)]

On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 10:16:28AM -0500, markw at mohawksoft.com wrote:
> I think many of us have used Linux for so long it seems inconceivable that
> we would use anything but linux.

I once thought that.  For those who don't know or don't remember, I'm
an old-timer, long-time Linux sysadmin, current Linux system software
developer, who once advocated for Linux for the masses for a long
time, including on this list.  I don't any longer.  I do still use
Linux for "real work" of any kind; but at home, for everything else, I
use Windows.  Somewhat begrudgingly, but it just IS the right tool for
the job. [But I admit I do run WSL on it for a variety of things, when
I don't want to switch to one of my machines running Linux, for
various reasons.]

> We will never get gamers because Linux just isn't that good for that
> application set and none of the gaming companies want to support Linux.

Well... This has never been entirely true, and is less true today than
ever.  For example:

  https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/679B-EC53-5A6D-6D7D

But yes, avid gamers WHO HAVE NO NEED OF ANYTHING ELSE will still
almost certainly run Windows.  If you want to play PC [in the
non-IBM sense] games, it's the hands-down winner.

> I guess the question is this: Can we help non-nerds be Linux users?
> As a "user's group" shouldn't we help generate new users?
> Historically speaking, I don't think there has ever been more user
> friendly linux distros and better interoperability and usability.

I mostly agree with that point, but I think the question you should
ask instead is, what would be the benefit--to yourself, to the Linux
community as a whole, as well as to the individual converted users--of
doing that?  At this point, personally, I think the answer is unclear
at best, and it does come with a cost.


On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 11:02:12AM -0800, Ron wrote:
> Steve Litt wrote on 2025-02-18 08:40:
> > Desktop Windows serves a purpose in the Linux ecosystem. It keeps the
> > lazy, "I refuse to learn simple shellscripts" people off our mailing
> > lists, so our computing lives don't get watered down.
> 
> And that elitist attitude still besmirches Linux & FLOSS decades later.

Eh.  I think Steve's take may be a bit heavy-handed, but I think the
sentiment is basically right.

The computer is a tool.  The OS running on it largely impacts how that
tool can be used--or at least how expensive it is to do what you want
on it.  Remember:  Expense is not just monetary cost.  Any resource
you put into addressing whatever the need is, is cost, including your
time.

For example:  A subset of computer users use their computers to
manipulate and store images from various sources, such as their phones
or digital cameras.  Most of those probably don't need anything
remotely resembling GIMP and just want the simplest thing that will
get the job done.  Likely they don't need anything that MS Paint
doesn't provide.  GIMP is ABSOLUTELY NOT worth learning to those
types.

So that's analogous to Linux vs. Windows.  Sure, Linux has gotten way
easier to just install and run.  But still, doing typical things tends
to be at least more likely to be difficult on Linux than Windows.  For
most users, there's just no point.  Let them find their own way to
Linux when they determine they need its power and flexibility, or are
just frustrated with how things break on Windows.  Plenty of things
will potentially break for them on Linux, too, but at least it'll be a
different problem set for them to bang their heads on. =8^)

But for the typical user, running Linux just plain requires them to
know more than running Windows does.  The average user doesn't
particularly want computer expertise; they just want to get stuff
done.

> > For the past 25 years, recruiting these "non-nerd" users has been the
> > excuse for making Linux ever more complexificated,

And also, confoundingly, oversimplifying/dumbing down...

> As to the "non-nerd" recruitment, that's silly. Long time Linux users
> want systems that aren't a joke to use: the ability to plug an average
> laptop into a 4K screen and get mixed DPI display; ability to get
> seamless multi-source audio, seamless networking, and so many other
> things, that *Linux users* want and that other platform users take for
> granted.

My work laptop is Linux, and it's been pretty stable and providing me
the equivalent of all of the above since I got it all set up, which
took about 3 days plus probably roughly the equivalent of another 3
days of tinkering at later times.  But the reality is, you will never
RELIABLY get this from Linux across a wide array of hardware.  Doing
so requires vendor support, which is, as ever, lacking compared to
Windows, for all the same reasons it always was 30 years ago.
Thankfully, to a substantially lesser degree, but still.

If you want a polished experience, use a Mac.

[FWIW, these days mixed DPI displays is probably the Wrong Thing?
since you can probably just configure your monitors' resolutions
individually as you want them instead.  Modern displays generally do a
very good job with hardware scaling.  This is what I do with my work
laptop and cheap 4K external display and both are crystal clear--no
software scaling required.]

> You want free / FLOSS software, yet also feel entitled to get your
> free software in precisely the manner you approve of.  Sounding like
> the people you described as:
> 
> > the lazy, "I refuse to learn simple $new_tools" people

No.  His point is correct--this just simply is harder on Linux, still,
on average.  In a way that the average user will not know and SHOULD
NOT KNOW how to deal with.  It's not just a matter of learning a new
tool.

Linux isn't for everyone, nor does it and nor should it need to be.

But that's not to say that it's a bad idea to opportunistically
convert folks who have a genuine need of or benefit from the power of
the penguin!  =8^)

-- 
Derek D. Martin    http://www.pizzashack.org/   GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02
-=-=-=-=-
This message is posted from an invalid address.  Replying to it will result in
undeliverable mail due to spam prevention.  Sorry for the inconvenience.