Re: Rant: graphical terminal based vim vs IDE

["Jerry Feldman-2" <user=4@nabble.blu.org>]

 On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:32:25 -0400 (EDT) 
[hidden email] wrote: 

> > On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote: 
> >> I don't need eclipse or some other IDE 
> >> creating a second "desktop metaphor" within my desktop metaphor. 
> > 8>< 
> >> There is no real reason why we need an application like an IDE that 
> >> provides basically the same functionality of the desktop only less 
> >> flexibly and in a way thats different than the desktop of our choosing. 
> > 
> > IDEs were designed to provide syntactic assistance with code editing, 
> 
> You mean like ctags? 
> 
> > but more importantly to provide semantic and work-flow features that 
> > save huge amounts of time when developing software. 
> 
> Like makefiles and "make?" 
> 
> >  Large software 
> > projects, especially those involving teams of developers, benefit 
> > enormously from using an IDE. 
> 
> I'm not sure you substantiated that statement. 
> 
> >  I'm not sure how anyone doing software 
> > engineering could get work done efficiently without things like code 
> > complete and generation, syntax high-lighting and auto-formatting, 
> > library resolution and token checking, refactoring tools, and build 
> > and unit-testing management. 
> 
> To be honest, I have seriously wasted so much time with products like 
> VisualStudio and eclipse that my mind boggles that *anyone* gets anything 
> done with these tools. 
> 
> Take VisualStudio, 2003 will not use a project created with 2005. 2005 
> will not use a project file produced with 2003 without converting it, 
> which then makes it unusable by 2003. What a stupid waste of time. The 
> only way to use this tool is to ensure that everyone is using the same 
> version of the development tools. This means that code shared across 
> different projects forces all the projects to use the same development 
> tools, and that isn't appropriate all the time especially if you are doing 
> kernel drivers. 
> 
> I have single Makefiles that work on a multitude of platforms and versions. 
> 
> svn co filepath 
> cd filepath 
> ./configure 
> make 
> make install 
> 
> > Of course there are also lots of plugins 
> > available for integrating with version control systems, bug and issue 
> > tracking systems, continuous integration tools, etc. 
> 
> Or, gasp, individual tools. 
> 
> > vi(m) is great, 
> > and it even does some of the above, but IMHO it's not the right tool 
> > for serious development. 
> 
> Define, please, what you think "serious development" consists of? I have 
> been developing software since the 70s and am a "serious" developer and I 
> use vim. 
> 
> > If you are so accustomed to vi(m)- or 
> > emacs-style editing, there are plugins for Eclipse (and I imagine 
> > other IDEs) that will allow you to continue editing in your preferred 
> > fashion. 
> 
> My biggest issue is the mouse. For the most part it is a distraction. 
> Using vim, my hands don't need to leave the keyboard, my visual attention 
> is not distracted by navigation. ":e #" switch the other document. ":e 
> filename" switch to a new file. ":w" save. ":x" save and exit. "dd" delete 
> a line. "p"   paste a line. And more. 
> 
> The "IDE" mentality, at least to me, hampers real productivity because it 
> distracts a developer by splitting his or her concentration. When you have 
> habitual control over keyboard actions it is less distracting than having 
> to break a train of thought to move a the mouse.