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One thing that you underscore is that these config utilities use a separate database, which is different from the actual configurations files, which are usually ASCII. The problem is that duplicate databases (or the same information duplicated in separate databases) are a real problem. Why the distro people keep coming up with solutions like linuxconf or YaST is beyond me, because it violates the basic principles of data integrity. I like YaST because it is simple and straightforward, in contrast to Linuxconf. I would think that a set of tools with a common look and feel (both character cell and graphical) but which operate on the actual text files would be preferential. These tools could maintain backup copies either in a code management system (like RCS). Also, this problem is not just unique to Linux, it is also a problem in commercial Unix systems. Try using SAM in HP-UX :-). On 26 Feb 2002 at 11:24, David Kramer wrote: > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 jkinz at ultranet.com wrote: > > > At 08:54 AM 2/26/2002 -0500, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > >> Lots of good questions and smart stuff > > > > Paul - I think your last idea - that a lot more work needs to be done is > > the problem and it isn't limited to RedHat. Ideally, (hah!), the system would > > auto-configure itself into exactly what is needed after asking the user/installer > > a few simple questions. > > > There is at least one person on the list who has thought about, as a > commercial venture, developing a new distro that is designed to be easy to > install and use. To date, every "newbie" linux distro has been a horrible > clusterf*ck that crashed and burned because it wasn't done right. I > believe there is a market for this if it *can* be done right with few > enough resources so as to still make money. > > >And a major part of the problem is the difficulty of doing the > >required testing. I've written lots of my own config thingies; as a > >long-time tcl/tk hacker, this is easy. But to make a generally-useful > >config tool, I'd need access to systems where I could do the obvious > >testing. > > This is a big problem, but if you're talking about writing something > specifically for a particular distro, very little should affect your > application's setup on different platforms except for device names, which > can be derived from some common sense and knowledge of those platforms. > > > How many questions, and what level of technicality would be appropriate > > to ask a "newbie" ? > > > > Look at how well the "configure" scripts determin what needs to be done > > to build the same package on many systems. > > > > This problem is more complex but a similar approach, packaged in a GUI > > would, after much effort, solve much of the problem. > > Here is the key to this in my eyes: Programs like Yast, linuxconf, rpm, > and Windows installers like Wise run into problems mostly because they > depend on databases holding the current state of the software and OS > config on the box, and that database may not necessarily match reality. > The key to the success of ./configure, and the key to success of a newbie > application or distro, is that it must look at the actual config files and > verify things as best as it can. get rid of the database. > > When ./configure wants to know if your box has "install" or "nm" or "gcc", > it doesn't say "well, this is Red Hat 7.0 so it must be in this > directory", it tries to find the file. Likewise, if you're writing a > program to make configuring Apache easier, every time it is run it should > first rediscover, without any prior knowledge from the previous run, where > apache's conf files are located and where the main DocumentRoot is. > > Two more big benefits of working on the real text config files is that > more advanced users can edit the config files directly without screwing up > the GUI, and that you can have multiple GUI's with different features or > varying levels of "newbieness" to do the same thing. > > Note that all of this is hard, but doing things the right way the first > time usually is. But it's worth it in the long run. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > DDDD David Kramer http://thekramers.net > DK KD > DKK D If Bill Gates had a dime for every time a Windows box > DK KD crashed... > DDDD ...,Oh wait, he already does. > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss at blu.org > http://www.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Jerry Feldman <gaf at blu.org> Associate Director Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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