[Discuss] [OT] unions

[invalid at pizzashack.org (Derek Martin)]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 06:11:12PM -0400, john saylor wrote:
> >>isn't the union movement on life support in this country?
> 
> On 04/19/2012 05:34 PM, Derek Martin wrote:
> >I don't know, is it?
> 
> yes it is.

Don't just level baseless assertions; I already don't believe you.
Provide some evidence please.

> btw, your mother's union experiences are interesting- but they are
> only one tiny sample.

...Which I admitted in my original reply, and why Tom's very logical
analysis was much more interesting and relevant.  But they're also
only a tiny sample of the experiences I've witnessed or had related to
me by friends and other family members, most of which were similar,
and very few of which have been positive.


> >>The number of people in poverty in 2010 (46.2 million) is the
> >>largest number in the 52 years for which poverty estimates have been
> >>published.
> >>[from http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/index.html]
> >
> >First let's clarify: you mean in the USA, specifically.
> 
> yes, www.census.gov is a us gov't site. and let's not even go to the
> world-wide stats as the poverty situation only gets worse.

So you're saying that poverty is worse in India and China than it was
52 years ago?  And in Japan and South Korea also?  Frankly, I don't
believe that.  I've lived in Asia, traveled all around it, and seen
what it is like now (in person) as compared to what it was like 50
years ago or more (in photos and in film, including those taken by the
people I met -- photos mostly -- not just what I saw in the media).
There's no comparison.

Before you condemn unfettered capitalism, please go and contrast the
standards of living in North Korea vs. South Korea.  I have: North
Korea exists pretty much as it (and also South Korea) did 52 years
ago (somewhat excepting those lucky enough to live in Pyongyang); by
comparison the average South Korean lives like a king.  I never once
felt oppressed or lacking for modern comforts while living there, and
my salary was about 20% less than the average annual salary for the
country.  Is there poverty?  To be sure.  But it's nothing like what
exists in the North.  I personally witnessed an amazing amount of
development in just the short time I was there... I'm not convinced
all of it was for the better, but one thing is clear: these people
live much better than they did 50 years ago.

> >Could it perhaps be that globalization and the high price of American
> >labor has priced us out of manufacturing and other industry sectors?
> >Or perhaps other factors?
> 
> globalization- what do you mean by that in this context? 

I mean that businesses have moved their operations to countries where
labor is cheaper, and advances in technology have made it profitable
to do so (whereas in the past the cost of transporting goods would
have made this prohibitive).

> to my analysis, globalization means multi-national corporations
> dominating more and more smaller national markets. 

That's one, particularly negative spin on it, sure.  Poll Chinese
factory workers and see how they feel about their situation, as
compared to before they were able to work in the factories.  There
will be some griping, but I can just about guarantee that the majority
of them will be quite happier and have a higher standard of living
than when all they could do was farm rice or cabbage, or whatever it
was their village grows.

> in this sense, globalization is another mechanism to condense wealth
> in fewer and fewer hands, another resource grab by management. who
> can counteract this?

Anyone can, potentially.  Open your own business.  Or be frugal and
invest in those companies which are sucking up all the profits.  Most
Americans waste vast amounts of money on vices such as cigarrettes,
alcohol, cake, lotteries, etc. and pump all of their remaining
disposable income into entertainment in some form or other.  If,
instead, you chose to invest that money, essentially becoming one of
the capitalists, either in a business of your own, or in the
businesses of those who are already making money hand over fist, then
you can have your share of the profits.  If you can succeed at your
own business, you might even be able to become an employer who
provides great working conditions to your employees...

Go ahead and blame the greedy corporate managers for taking all your
money, but please remember to blame yourself equally for giving it to
them.  I don't dispute that there's a wealth disparity here and around
the world.  But if this bothers you so much, do something about it:
stop giving them your money, and instead use it to take your share in
the profits.  When you've saved enough, you won't have to work
weekends anymore.  Or weekdays, either, if you're successful.  Or
participate in politics or the legal system and effect the change you
want to see.  Any of these are, I'm convinced, more effective than
lamenting the state of unions in this country, or trying to unionize
the IT industry.

-- 
Derek D. Martin    http://www.pizzashack.org/   GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02
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